It's a Numbers Game

[Clark Addison]

Thread title is of course an homage to our favorite show on the .mtn.

I recently got my monthly email from the quorum secretary asking me if I did my home teaching. Last Sunday, we spent a good amount of time talking about home teaching numbers in our ward and the stake in general. This got me thinking of numbers in the church.

One of the common complaints about the church, with which I am sometimes sympathetic, is that we are too numbers focused. We have numbers for everything, and we use them to judge too much. I do not mean this thread to be a place to complain about the bean-counter-tricity of the church (although if you have any good stories or insights, feel free to share). I instead am wondering how and when we got here.

I assume that the church in 1840 had neither the ability nor the inclination to track visits, attendence, and righteousness the way we do now. Though I didn't know him personally, Joseph Smith does not seem the type of personality to initiate rigid KPI systems. So when did it start?

Was there one individual, or one period, that really drove this?

Was there one facet of the church that required tracking, such as tithing or temple recommends, which then drove toward more and more measurement?

Was it the focus in the D&C on order and record-keeping?

Or was it something that just sort of evolved over time? It is not something that was inevitable, as I am not familiar with any other church that does it to the extent we do.

If it was a slow evolution, do we have an idea of the timeframes? The church is obviously more bureaucratic and business-like now than it was 100 years ago; I would assume that as more business-types and attorneys started running the show, this type of management style would increase. Does that explain it, or was it the reverse, as the church became more numbers focused, it needed more business-types to manage things?

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I know nothing about any of your questions, so I hope this isn't a total thread jack.

When I was on my mission in Sacramento we had a report for numbers of basically everything we did, we called them in nightly do our DL and weekly to our ZL. Our weekly report to the ZLs even included a number for our numbers that we turned in daily to our DL. It was clear that there was nothing done with the numbers turned in nightly it was more just a fear motivator.

For about 2 months I had this ZL who was a tender little guy, but not the brightest bulb in the box. I would just totally make up numbers, and it was so obvious. One week we would give out 75 BoM, have 90 GQs and teach 25 1stD. The next we would give out 3 BoM, 8 GQs and 0 1stD.

Numbers to the ZL were turned in every Saturday night, we would then see them on Monday for District meeting. One week he was in tears asking me how we were so on fire the week before and then appeared to do nothing that week, what could he do to help. His actual crying while asking me this almost made me start just turning in honest numbers every week.

[Indy Coug]

I'll just throw this out quickly:

The bishop sees the report of who has and hasn't been visited and if there is someone that needs to be visited that hasn't will be visited by the bishop and/or the EQP and/or the home teachers after being instructed to get with it.

The bishop is responsible for everyone and without accountability, it's very difficult for him to ascertain where the needs are.

Numbers are a necessary evil.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Numbers are a necessary evil.

Does that make you someone who delights in evil? Just asking.

[Indy Coug]

Does that make you someone who delights in evil? Just asking.

Rhetorical question?

[Green Monstah]

I'll just throw this out quickly:

The bishop sees the report of who has and hasn't been visited and if there is someone that needs to be visited that hasn't will be visited by the bishop and/or the EQP and/or the home teachers after being instructed to get with it.

The bishop is responsible for everyone and without accountability, it's very difficult for him to ascertain where the needs are.

Numbers are a necessary evil.

Not really. The bishop/eqp could still use the reported info and perform the same duties without obsessing
Over percenrages. This is my only beef with HT numbers. Sometimes we chase a number, not quality
Of our visits or the relationships we build.

[RC Vikings]

I believe that the type of people who would remain active in the church are also the type that would care about numbers also. Look around in your wards and you're going to have more accountants than lumberjacks. It had to have been just a natural progression.

[Indy Coug]

Not really. The bishop/eqp could still use the reported info and perform the same duties without obsessing
Over percenrages. This is my only beef with HT numbers. Sometimes we chase a number, not quality
Of our visits or the relationships we build.

I can guarantee you the wards with 15% home teaching (and yes, I've been in units where that was the number) aren't getting a lot of high quality visits wedged in there.

[Green Monstah]

I can guarantee you the wards with 15% home teaching (and yes, I've been in units where that was the number) aren't getting a lot of high quality visits wedged in there.

I won't disagree. But I feel like I've been in wards with high % where there were very few as well. Why? Because we were checking a box and tallying a number and not focusing enough on individuals and forming relationships.

That being said, the reason the focus is probably on numbers is that it's measurable and tangible. You can't quantify charity as easily.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Businesses value what they can measure.

[Moliere]

I believe that the type of people who would remain active in the church are also the type that would care about numbers also. Look around in your wards and you're going to have more accountants than lumberjacks. It had to have been just a natural progression.

This is sort of my take on the matter.

Our leadership in the church does not come from Bible School, nor do they hold Theology degrees. Instead, our Area Authorities, Stake Presidents, Bishops, etc. have MBAs, JDs, MAccs, Engineering Degrees. Most of leadership works in corporate America and reports to or has people reporting numbers to them everyday. It's natural for those corporate managers to bring over to their church management that which is familiar to them.

Also, it's apparent that those who are best at managing or have been managers at work are called to leadership positions (or Indy would probably say those called to leadership positions were first prepared by being managers at their work). Either way, it's the Corporatification of our church and goes along with a lot of the processes in the church. It doesn't bug me, but of course I have no numbers for which I'm responsible.

[Goatnapper'96]

Businesses value what they can measure.

I would extend that to most organizations that have goals. Businesses are just an organization with the goal of making money. There are many other organizations that track numbers ad nauseum who don't have profitability as the endstate goal.

[pellegrino]

I would extend that to most organizations that have goals. Businesses are just an organization with the goal of making money. There are many other organizations that track numbers ad nauseum who don't have profitability as the endstate goal.

you may have just validated his point.