Oaks on religious freedom

[tooblue]

There have actually been several in Canada. The most famous was one in Alberta in 2002. Originally convicted and sentenced to a fine and jail time, the sentence was lowered to a $7000 fine in 2007. that ruling was upheld in 2008, and then in 2009, all charges were dismissed by canada's supreme court. There are numerous other cases in Canada. Arrest, and then ultimate conviction with large fines and cease and desist orders. those have pretty much stopped with the 2009 ruling. But Mark Steyn's case went through last year - and cost him almost a quarter million dollars to defend himself.

Also - a 2-minute Google search shows that convictions with jail time have been made re: hate speech by preachers in Australia, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands. I'm sur there are more. Some of those have ultimately been overturned, but the Swedish guy did serve jail time.

I had forgotten about the Alberta case but it doesn't sound like several in Canada, unless you want to provide the links from your 2 minute Google search ... they might add to the discussion. Regardless, I have already posted links to other instances that were similar.

By the way, I live in Canada.

[Uncle Ted]

I see you attended stake conference this weekend. After this was mentioned, I immediately thought about how the prophecy in Isaiah would have been fulfilled about the temple of the Lord being established in the tops of the mountains if the saints had settled in Midland.

You don't think the "mountains" down in Texas hill country would have not fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy as well as the salt lake desert valley?

Yeah this is about as much as I got out of stake conference before the internet stream started freezing up and our young son decided he had enough.

[Moliere]

You don't think the "mountains" down in Texas hill country would have not fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy as well as the salt lake desert valley?

Yeah this is about as much as I got out of stake conference before the internet stream started freezing up and our young son decided he had enough.

On our drive home (which is about 15 minutes) I asked MJ how she enjoyed conference. Her response was "It was long!" Now none of you have ever met MJ but suffice it to say this was probably the last thing I think she'd ever say. I busted up laughing.

FTR, the whole Texas thing was all I got out of it as well. I don't do well sitting on hard seats in the back of a gym with many young kids while at the same time trying to watch a broadcast that was no different than general conference. It's usually during these times that I pray that women will someday have some influence on the structure of meetings.

[UtahDan]

Apparently, Elder Oaks was on Hugh Hewitt's show last week.

http://www.hughhewitt.com/blog/g/60e...2-f30ee3256ac9

That was well worth the read. Very interesting. Interesting enough that I made a few notes. Here are a list of things Elder Oaks said that could each perhaps be its own thread:

1. Religious liberty is on the “fall” and has been ever since the United States Supreme Court in Employment Division v. Smith told two Oregon men that while the constitution protects purely religious actions, it does not carve out a religious exception for activity that is not purely religious in nature and that is illegal for everyone else. In this case, smoking peyote. This decision “dragged religion out of the sanctuary” and “de-emphasized religion very significantly.”

2. Without religion, technology will be used for evil.

3. The Constitution pre-supposes moral and religious people and is not adequate to govern a people who are not.

4. There is nothing wrong with voters having a “test” which determines whether or not they will vote for someone based upon that person’s religious affiliation. It is wrong, however, for clergy to tell their congregations from the pulpit that they should vote or not vote for someone based on the candidate’s religious affiliation.

5. Declining birth rates in Europe are a cause for concern because the failure of those Western societies to reproduce themselves will cause the loss of those cultures.

Those were the ones that jumped out at me, but there were many others I am sure.

[Pheidippides]

On our drive home (which is about 15 minutes) I asked MJ how she enjoyed conference. Her response was "It was long!" Now none of you have ever met MJ but suffice it to say this was probably the last thing I think she'd ever say. I busted up laughing.

FTR, the whole Texas thing was all I got out of it as well. I don't do well sitting on hard seats in the back of a gym with many young kids while at the same time trying to watch a broadcast that was no different than general conference. It's usually during these times that I pray that women will someday have some influence on the structure of meetings.

I ended up in the hallway of the church discussing Jimmer. Time well spent.

[SeattleUte]

That was well worth the read. Very interesting. Interesting enough that I made a few notes. Here are a list of things Elder Oaks said that could each perhaps be its own thread:

1. Religious liberty is on the “fall” and has been ever since the United States Supreme Court in Employment Division v. Smith told two Oregon men that while the constitution protects purely religious actions, it does not carve out a religious exception for activity that is not purely religious in nature and that is illegal for everyone else. In this case, smoking peyote. This decision “dragged religion out of the sanctuary” and “de-emphasized religion very significantly.”

2. Without religion, technology will be used for evil.

3. The Constitution pre-supposes moral and religious people and is not adequate to govern a people who are not.

4. There is nothing wrong with voters having a “test” which determines whether or not they will vote for someone based upon that person’s religious affiliation. It is wrong, however, for clergy to tell their congregations from the pulpit that they should vote or not vote for someone based on the candidate’s religious affiliation.

5. Declining birth rates in Europe are a cause for concern because the failure of those Western societies to reproduce themselves will cause the loss of those cultures.

Those were the ones that jumped out at me, but there were many others I am sure.

Good list.

Oaks has a remarkable scholarly resume. He's being deployed for this fool's errand because of that. All I feel about this is sadness. His views aren't even worth debating.

[tooblue]

Good list.

Oaks has a remarkable scholarly resume. He's being deployed for this fool's errand because of that. All I feel about this is sadness. His views aren't even worth debating.

In other words you lack a similar scholarly resume and the wits to debate his views. lol

[Sleeping in EQ]

The Church's biggest fight is to be relevant.

[SeattleUte]

In other words you lack a similar scholarly resume and the wits to debate his views. lol

I'm not going to take your bait and attack a desparate, very old man of obviously decaying intellect. I prefer to remember Oaks in his prime. Suffice to say that Dan's list speaks for itself.

[happyone]

Not until much later. WW himself approved numerous post-manifesto marriages in Mexico and on ships in the Pacific ocean and on the Great Lakes. There is strong circumstantial evidence that he was married to an additional wife in 1897 on a ship in the Pacific.

I agree - IIRC it was about the time of Joseph F. Smith's second manifesto and the Reed Smoot hearings. I read about in a Smoot biography. It was intimated that they were kind of offered up as a sacrifce to get Smoot seated.

[Solon]

The Church's biggest fight is to be relevant.

SEIQ: able to sum up in one line what others take threads to hash out.

Brevity, soul, wit, etc.

[tooblue]

I'm not going to take your bait and attack a desparate, very old man of obviously decaying intellect. I prefer to remember Oaks in his prime. Suffice to say that Dan's list speaks for itself.

What on UtahDans' list do you disagree with?

1. That the cited case resulted in "de-emphasized religion"?

2. In the place of religion what holds technology in check?

3. The architects of the constitution were merely moral, scientific beings but not religious? There are no religious overtones in the document or any religious motivations that incited it's creation?

4. Based upon your past commentary I fail to see your opposition to anything as worded by Dan in point number four?

5. You deny that there is a declining birth rate in Europe (and for that matter, Canada), which may be cause for concern:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/ma...29Birth-t.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in546441.shtml

[Jeff Lebowski]

SEIQ: able to sum up in one line what others take threads to hash out.

Brevity, soul, wit, etc.

Oh believe me, he can be verbose when he chooses to.

(sorry SIEQ, couldn't resist)

[Moliere]

The Church's biggest fight is to be relevant.

This is the biggest change in the church that I have witnessed in my short lifespan. As a younger lad we hailed ourselves as peculiar or different. Now we wish to be accepted and included. I'm not positive of the driving force behind this change but I have my suspicions.

[UtahDan]

This is the biggest change in the church that I have witnessed in my short lifespan. As a younger lad we hailed ourselves as peculiar or different. Now we wish to be accepted and included. I'm not positive of the driving force behind this change but I have my suspicions.

I'm not sure anyone was stopped wanting to be peculiar or different, they just want acceptance as well. It is one of the paradoxes Givens writes about here:

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