The Church and Organized Higher Education

[wuapinmon]

As the Church grows, does the university system need to be expanded?

Provo, Idaho, Hawaii. If the Church were to expand, where do you see it's expansion being the most effective in terms of $$$ and impact on the membership? BYU can only grow so much in Provo. Let me go on the record and say that I think that BYU offers a solid education, and for people not from the Idaho-Utah-Arizona-California corridor, it really is a great place to go look for a spouse while finally seeing what a community of Mormons is like (and then realizing that you'll be ready to leave upon graduation).

A quick answer might be Brazil, but that runs into the question of the Church being able to form a competent faculty of Portuguese-speaking professors who also hold temple recommends. I don't know if it could; I just imagine that it might be a problem given the relative youth of the Church in Brazil.

Southern Virginia is already a "non-affiliated" affiliate of the system. I was offered an on-campus interview, but then someone there read my blog and they rescinded the offer in an email. Apparently, I'm too liberal to teach Spanish. I hope they weather this economic storm; as a tuition-driven institution, they will most likely struggle through the next couple of years. Are colleges like SVU better than a Church-subsidized system?

[Solon]

As the Church grows, does the university system need to be expanded?

Provo, Idaho, Hawaii. If the Church were to expand, where do you see it's expansion being the most effective in terms of $$$ and impact on the membership? BYU can only grow so much in Provo. Let me go on the record and say that I think that BYU offers a solid education, and for people not from the Idaho-Utah-Arizona-California corridor, it really is a great place to go look for a spouse while finally seeing what a community of Mormons is like (and then realizing that you'll be ready to leave upon graduation).

A quick answer might be Brazil, but that runs into the question of the Church being able to form a competent faculty of Portuguese-speaking professors who also hold temple recommends. I don't know if it could; I just imagine that it might be a problem given the relative youth of the Church in Brazil.

Southern Virginia is already a "non-affiliated" affiliate of the system. I was offered an on-campus interview, but then someone there read my blog and they rescinded the offer in an email. Apparently, I'm too liberal to teach Spanish. I hope they weather this economic storm; as a tuition-driven institution, they will most likely struggle through the next couple of years. Are colleges like SVU better than a Church-subsidized system?

No offense intended to the ardent BYU folks around here, but I think the church should get out of higher education, or at least resist expanding. The growing cost of running a university and issues with academic freedom (real and imagined) make it a poor investment, in my opinion. I would suggest focusing on Institute programs and making them stronger and more respectable throughout the US and other countries. This way the church can control curriculum and still foster a good environment for that age group.

And that's a great story about SVU uninviting you by e-mail. You stay classy, Knights.

[RobinFinderson]

Did SVU ever get accreditation?

[pellegrino]

I agree w/ Solon

The church should resist getting any further involved in education than they already are. As long as they are going to require that faculty members be temple worthy and limit their research to approved topics they should avoid expansion. It quickly becomes a nightmare for both administrators and faculty (or even potential faculty) members.

I do wish they could find a way to move to a more Jesuit model where free and open inquiry is encouraged and all aspects of humanity are valued because humanity was created by God. I think they'd be surprised at the quality of students and faculty they'd get if they would practice Joseph Smith's counsel of "teaching them correct principles and letting them govern themselves." But of course that would mean doing away with the trivial outward aspects of the honor code and decentralizing the power structures that currently dominate the schools, which is not likely to happen.


PS-SVU did get accredited.

[CardiacCoug]

No offense intended to the ardent BYU folks around here, but I think the church should get out of higher education, or at least resist expanding. The growing cost of running a university and issues with academic freedom (real and imagined) make it a poor investment, in my opinion. I would suggest focusing on Institute programs and making them stronger and more respectable throughout the US and other countries. This way the church can control curriculum and still foster a good environment for that age group.

And that's a great story about SVU uninviting you by e-mail. You stay classy, Knights.

It seems to me like BYU is a great investment for the Church.

How many kids who go to BYU would have left the Church and never payed tithing if they had attended another university? I think it's a pretty big number. Getting intelligent LDS students to marry other LDS students (often more orthodox) is a great way to keep members within the fold.

[CardiacCoug]

I do wish they could find a way to move to a more Jesuit model where free and open inquiry is encouraged and all aspects of humanity are valued because humanity was created by God. I think they'd be surprised at the quality of students and faculty they'd get if they would practice Joseph Smith's counsel of "teaching them correct principles and letting them govern themselves." But of course that would mean doing away with the trivial outward aspects of the honor code and decentralizing the power structures that currently dominate the schools, which is not likely to happen.

I agree with this. I think it's great for the Church to be involved in education. I just wish the Church would do it in a smarter way.

[pellegrino]

I agree with this. I think it's great for the Church to be involved in education. I just wish the Church would do it in a smarter way.

I too think that the church's involvement in education is important, and I too wish they were smarter about it. I really do wish the entire BYU franchise could move towards a Jesuit model. I think everyone involved would benefit greatly from it.

[Babs]

How many kids who go to BYU would have left the Church and never payed tithing if they had attended another university? I think it's a pretty big number.

If that's the case, then how sincere is the faith to begin with?

Or are you strictly speaking pragmatically in terms of what is financially advantageous for the Church?

[Surfah]

I don't agree with the Honor Code. But something that gets lost in the HC debates is that there was no HC until students drafted it. The HC wasn't imposed upon students, it was created by students.

I have no problem with the church sponsoring the schools it does now. I think they're a great investment. I got a first rate education with zero debt because of it. I also think there is truth to CardiacCoug's idea that it's a great place to continue to foster strength and orthodoxy for the church.

[Surfah]

How many kids who go to BYU would have left the Church and never payed tithing if they had attended another university? I think it's a pretty big number.

I don't think it's as big a number as you think. You make it seem like kids fall away by the wayside at other schools and that's not the case, certainly not in my experience.

[pellegrino]

I don't agree with the Honor Code. But something that gets lost in the HC debates is that there was no HC until students drafted it. The HC wasn't imposed upon students, it was created by students.

True, the original honor code was drafted by students, but then it was co opted by administration and now the students have very little input as to its shape or the discipline that comes from it, except for those zealous whisker watcher students who refuse service based on when you last shaved.

In many other universities the students completely run the honor code, even having honor courts for issues as serious as cheating and plagiarism. The accused student gets fair representation (usually some pre-law geek) in front of a panel of his peers and they weigh the evidence and administer the punishments. I'm not opposed to the idea of the honor code, I just wish the implementation were less hierarchical.

[CardiacCoug]

I don't think it's as big a number as you think. You make it seem like kids fall away by the wayside at other schools and that's not the case, certainly not in my experience.

When I was in med school I seem to remember a lot of LDS undergraduate students who only came to church when their parents were visiting. It seemed like only about half the LDS undergraduate students on the rolls attended church 50% of the time or more.

[SoonerCoug]

If that's the case, then how sincere is the faith to begin with?

Or are you strictly speaking pragmatically in terms of what is financially advantageous for the Church?

The early 20s is the age at which most people make their most important decisions about how they're going to live their life. A university environment can have a big influence on those decisions. I don't think it's a question of sincerity.

[Jeff Lebowski]

True, the original honor code was drafted by students, but then it was co opted by administration and now the students have very little input as to its shape or the discipline that comes from it, except for those zealous whisker watcher students who refuse service based on when you last shaved.

Such irony. Darn those McCarthy-era do-gooders.

Welcome to the board, BTW.

[pellegrino]

Welcome to the board, BTW.

Thanks, I didn't see any official newbie introduction area so I just jumped in, but in case anyone was wondering, my name is pellegrino and I'm an alcoholic. I hope that satisfies the introduction protocol.