The manipulation pattern

[marsupial]

I disagree. I think your defense seems marginal. That's not too productive to exchange that sort of comment, is it? I think this would have been a more productive and potentially interesting thread if you had defined what you mean by "the manipulation pattern." But you are obviously under no obligation to do so and I will now bow out.

This thread has seemed to rub you the wrong way and I am not sure I understand why. Something about danimal: He is very thoughtful in his decisions, likes to be able to think things through for himself and come to his own conclusions. He definitely does not like to be put on the spot and if he is, his knee-jerk reaction is to say no.

We were talking about it last night and I mentioned that you find the manipulation pattern, as he called it, outside of church as well. At least, I experienced similar tactics at leadership camp when I was a teenager and also I saw it when I was working on the corporate end of a few MLM companies. In his experience, however, has only been related to church.

[marsupial]

I'm not sure if this completely fits the premise, and I feel kind of bad replying after Creek's admonition, but this was one of my favorite mission stories.

My mission would usually baptize about 40 people a month. The highest we ever had was around 70. During the time period of this story, things were slow, and we had only been baptizing 15 to 20 per month for a few months. My Mission President got a hold of this talk or article on Convenanting with the Lord. I've heard of a few other missions who did something similar, so I think it was spreading around at the time. This was not written by a GA, and was not in an official publication. In fact, Elder Komatsu, who was the Area President at the time, did not want my MP to pursue it in a rather loud argument in his office.

The theory of this program was that if we made a goal, and then said "here is what we will do to meet this goal", the Lord would be bound to honor this covenent and it would happen. So we had a mission conference, and the MP (who was and is, I should say, a great man) really laid it on us about how we needed to have faith, covenant with the Lord, and we would surely meet our goals. He had each companionship make a goal for how many baptisms they would have next month. Then he had all the Zones meet and compile the numbers. Then all the Zone Leaders went to the front of the room and, one by one, state what there goal was, with a lot of pressure to make it big.

For the purpose of this story, I must reveal that I was a ZL on my mission. My comp and I got all the companionship goals, and they added up to over 20 baptisms. We knew how many investigators we currently had, and we knew that in the previous month we had baptized around 4, so we knew that that 20 wasn't going to happen. So we go up with all the other ZLs. The first one is called up, and he says "The Kowloon Central zone will baptize 25 people next month!", and everyone cheers. Then the next one stands up and says "The Island East Zone will baptize 28 people next month", and everyone cheered louder. We were about the sixth zone to go, and by that time the mission had already committed to about 150 baptisms, which was twice as many as we had ever had, and the crowd is in a frenzy. So I stood up and said "The Kowloon East Zone will baptize 7 people next month", and there was silence throughout the room, and the MP gave me a bit of a dirty look. I am pretty sure that meeting is why I never made AP.

So in the end, the mission had a goal of over 200 baptisms. We just missed that number, baptizing around 35. On the plus side, we were the only zone that met our goal, but somehow we didn't get any credit for that.

This seems so contrary to everything I have ever learned about the nature of God and I think most other Christian religions would find it offensive that we think we have the power to get God to commit to our plans, however well-intentioned we think they are.

[Babs]

We were talking about it last night and I mentioned that you find the manipulation pattern, as he called it, outside of church as well. At least, I experienced similar tactics at leadership camp when I was a teenager and also I saw it when I was working on the corporate end of a few MLM companies. In his experience, however, has only been related to church.

I think the history of this forum is affecting his perception of this particular post. There are some posters who are known for cleverly worded, seemingly innocuous posts that have deliberate negative connotation and the subtle (or not-so) intention of undermining the church. Regardless of Danimal's actual intentions, I think the existence of those posters has colored how creekster interpreted Danimal's thread.

[falafel]

My mission president went the covenant route for a couple of months as well. If I recall correctly, a missionary or two raised some concerns about us setting the terms of the covenants with God and he subsequently recanted. I am not sure if he based his idea the same talk you referenced or not. I think this was in the latter half of 1999. It is all a bit hazy.

We did it too at about that same time. There was also a heavy "sacrifice brings for the blessings of heaven" element. We were all asked to sacrifice something above and beyond the norm (i.e. giving up ALL music, even that which was specifically allowed). Nothing in the mission changed and we abandoned it after a month or two.

[Goatnapper'96]

This seems so contrary to everything I have ever learned about the nature of God and I think most other Christian religions would find it offensive that we think we have the power to get God to commit to our plans, however well-intentioned we think they are.

Well I sure as hell wouldn't want to offend "them" when they conclude I might think that God's will is for people to join the Church I am pounding on doors to sell.

Now I think the mission contract thing was gay. But I think that the power theoretically given to the Nephi in 3rd Nephi to have power over life and death indicates that the goal for all mankind, within LDS theology, is to get to the exact state you describe. When our will is swallowed in the will of the Father, there is that total trust and one might say we have "atoned." At that point one perspective could be we control God, no?

[Clark Addison]

This seems so contrary to everything I have ever learned about the nature of God and I think most other Christian religions would find it offensive that we think we have the power to get God to commit to our plans, however well-intentioned we think they are.

In Mormonism's defense, Elder Komatsu also thought it was a bad idea. My MP is a great man, but even great men do silly things sometimes. He was actually younger than I am now when he was my MP. He was a professor at BYU-H and called to be a MP in his 30s. I can forgive him this.

His wife, on the other hand . . .

[NorthwestUteFan]

There are some great stories in this thread! (As is highly common on CUF I had to wade through lawyerly types flinging their poo all over it, but after that it is solid).

It seems like a rather common approach in MLM businesses as well.

Does that explain why they are so prevalent in Utah? Great number of RM's who are familiar with Commitment Pattern and HoTFaRTS who need jobs and already have cold contacting and subliminal arm twisting sales experience?

I got the "You appreciated the help the EQ gave you when you moved in, I think you should accept a calling to be in the EQ presidency" speech. I begrudgingly accepted, and felt terribly used over the whole experience. I have tried a few times to get released, but now I just go with the flow.

I likely have a very different experience than many others. I live in an area without a significant church presence. Despite this, many highly-placed leadership people in my ward and stake are also in highly-placed leadership positions at my work. So I get it from both sides so it is a double-edged sword.

If I do poorly in a church assignment I fear it will create problems for me at work (my supervisor's boss' boss is in our SP for example). But on the flip side, if I get a promotion at work my coworkers grumble about me getting it only because I am 'in the club'. They complain because they call these people 'Mr. So-and-So', while I am on a first-name basis with all of these upper-management types.

Still, I envy those of you who are lucky enough to have a complete seperation between your work lives and your church lives.

On the mission we were strongarmed by the APs to openly and verbally commit to a certain number of BOM's given our per month, and we kept daily/weekly stats with monthly reporting (I was a DL or ZL at the time). My comp and I worked diligently to give out as many as possible and to have as meaningful a discussion about it with the person as was possible (and set up follow-up appointments where possible). I was somewhat distraught as we were far short of our goals and at the next Zone meeting it turns out we were the only ones who had 'failed'.

A month or two later I was on a split with a greenie. He started setting books on bus stop benches, setting them on walls next to sidewalks, handing them out to kids walking by, etc. He told me this is what they ALWAYS did, and that sometimes the person taking the book would set up a follow-up.

I realized how poorly people respond to strongarm management techniques. I subsequently was determined to never do the same thing, to never ask somebody to perform a task and pour on the "it is God's will (to accomplish My/our goals which I set...) and he will hate you if your don't succeed" garbage.

[LA Ute]

This is kind of a "drive-by" post on my part because I lack the time to read the entire thread, even though it looks great. I did ask myself what we see in the scriptures regarding asking for a commitment, and Mosiah 18 came to mind. I don't see much of that "commitment pattern" stuff here:

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

Just sayin'. I do think there are many things we can do that make us more effective in inviting people to accept the gospel, but sales formulas leave me cold.

[UtahDan]

Did anyone watch Modern Family last night? I think the super soaker method may be worth looking into.

[Moliere]

Did anyone watch Modern Family last night? I think the super soaker method may be worth looking into.

And we've already determined in another thread that "immersion" has not necessarily been the only correct way to baptize.

[The_Tick]

I likely have a very different experience than many others. I live in an area without a significant church presence. Despite this, many highly-placed leadership people in my ward and stake are also in highly-placed leadership positions at my work. So I get it from both sides so it is a double-edged sword.

If I do poorly in a church assignment I fear it will create problems for me at work (my supervisor's boss' boss is in our SP for example). But on the flip side, if I get a promotion at work my coworkers grumble about me getting it only because I am 'in the club'. They complain because they call these people 'Mr. So-and-So', while I am on a first-name basis with all of these upper-management types.

Drunk Tank and I suffer from this at work.

My boss used to be my Bishop. He is Mormon.

I got my interview out here because he recommended me. I was hired.

I am Mormon. DT is my best friend. I gave him an app and he put me and my boss down as a reference. He was hired.

I am now the department lead. There are 2 folks in the department that have been here longer than I have, but they don't have the skills that I do. Regardless...the only reason I got the position is because I am Mormon.

We have a 3rd Mormon in the department. He is a slacker and I would like nothing more than to get him fired.

No matter how far DT and I exceed and excel, it isn't because we are good at what we do. It is because we are Mormon.

Sucks.

[KillerDog]

I can't think of many specific committement pattern examples. I am resistent to it on principle and I usually derail it early on before it gets a head of steam. That said, I will give my little contribution.

On my mission I bought a guitar at a flea market. I learned to play a few songs on the guitar and would play it in the evenings. During my mission the presidents changed. One didn't care if we had musical instruments but the other had issue with it. I didn't want to get rid of my first guitar so I put it in the closet. One morning near the end of my mission, the APs did what they called a "spot check." They would show up at your place early in the morning to catch if you were sleeping in or studying or whatever. We were both up and studying and I could tell they were disappointed. One of the APs had shared an apartment with me earlier in the mission and he, out of the blue, asked what I had done with my guitar. I told him it was in my closet and he launched into the committment pattern trying to get the guitar from me and take it back to the President's residence for "safe keeping." Despite my reasonable arguments that refusing to play it would be sufficient and that I didn't want it with the missionary stuff at the President's because that stuff would get broken, he was unbending. I was trying to be a good guy and this guy had been my friend so I gave him the $10 guitar. Two months later, at the end of my mission, this elder and I were going home at the same time. We met at the mission home the day before and I asked him about my guitar. Sure enough, he had put it in with the missionary stuff and the neck had been cracked. I looked at it, realized it was broken, and started smashing it on the ground. I then left it all broken up in the hallway. Now I don't do the committment pattern on principle.

[NorthwestUteFan]

No matter how far DT and I exceed and excel, it isn't because we are good at what we do. It is because we are Mormon.

Sucks.

Thanks, I am glad to see others with a similar predicament. It is almost expected in Utah where a large portion of the population are church members. In an area where there are very few members, however, it is rare and smacks of favoritism when many high-placed management types are church members.

Then again, it isn't completely confined to the church. The place where I used to work had a huge group of Masons in higher positions. People would always complain about the 'Ring Spinners' club looking out for each other.

In both cases I can obviously see that the positions and advancements have been earned the hard way. Both the church members here and the Masons at my old job seem to be hard-working, dedicated, honest, and trustworthy people who excel at their given duties.

Despite having some bad experiences as a missionary and in various church callings, I am certainly a better person and employee for learning the management techniques, study techniques, interpersonal relationship tools, etc.

[Paperback Writer]

Drunk Tank and I suffer from this at work.

My boss used to be my Bishop. He is Mormon.

I got my interview out here because he recommended me. I was hired.

I am Mormon. DT is my best friend. I gave him an app and he put me and my boss down as a reference. He was hired.

I am now the department lead. There are 2 folks in the department that have been here longer than I have, but they don't have the skills that I do. Regardless...the only reason I got the position is because I am Mormon.

We have a 3rd Mormon in the department. He is a slacker and I would like nothing more than to get him fired.

No matter how far DT and I exceed and excel, it isn't because we are good at what we do. It is because we are Mormon.

Sucks.

Hear's something to brighten your day - it might not suck to the degree of your situation. But put yourself in the following scenerio - it's not exactly hypothetical. You earn a promotion at work in a different department. One of your direct reports in your new position is LDS but in a different ward in a different city. You don't exactly get along with this LDS guy but you both have common ground and are professional. Part of the reason for not hitting it off great is that this LDS guy applied for (and thought he'd earned) the promotion you received.

You then build a new house in the city this LDS guy lives in mostly becasue this LDS guy can't shut up about how terrific his community is. Prior to signing the building contract you do your due diligence and check out the new community and your future ward. Most of what this LDS guy talks about as far as the community goes is accurate. The ward appears to be a good one and a good fit for your family. There are 4 wards and 2 LDS chapels in this community. The LDS guy that reports to you lives a couple miles away from where you are building and is in a different ward that meets in the other building. You house is finally finished and you move in and get settled in your new ward. After not only a month, the stake decides to create a new ward and most of the ward boundaries are changed. Now the LDS guy is not only in your ward but is called as a new Bishop for your ward. The guy that reports to you and feels he earned the promotion you got...is now your Bishop. And to make things more interesting - you are female (and have heard that this is the reason why this LDS guy thinks you got the promotion).

[SeattleUte]

See paragraphs 1-4. A real life brain washing of an impressionable, sensitive, vulnerable, loving young man:

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...4&postcount=81