Four thoughts on church leaders

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  • SeattleUte
    Faith crisis consultant
    • Nov 2008
    • 20837

    #1

    Four thoughts on church leaders

    (LDS leaders.)

    1) The claim to "modern revelation" by church leaders has struck me as crushingly ironic (on questions of ultra-importance, particularly for an organization claiming moral authority to dictate or guide lives, they have seemingly been the last to know the answer), but the irony seems to be lost on them.

    2) They have been extremely old for a long time. This may to a large degree explain 1) above. Remember what happened to the Soviet Union when it deviated from a gerontocracy and called a 51-year old as General Secretary.

    3) I wonder if they are still so deified, and if they have lost some of their swagger. When I was active in the LDS Church nearly 3 decades ago, LDS leaders' confidence in themselves, and mainstream members' willingness to accept their every word as verity, even regarding dissent as a form of sin or transgression, was itself an institution. I can't tell if this has changed, because it seems any active LDS I have much contact with anymore is quite a lot like me. I may not be exposed to a cross-section, however. I think LDS leaders' desire to maintain their aura of deity explains the last clause of 1) above.

    4) I think Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were fascinating, brilliant characters, ideal for building a founding myth around. Smith's foibles in a way add to his mystique. Young's are not out of the norm for a prophet leading a people in the wilderness. In a sense, Smith and Young really were prophets, depending on what the word means to you. LDS leaders since them have been less interesting, and today's leaders seem to have little in common with Smith and Young. They seem to be most like leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift
  • Mormon Red Death
    BYU Delenda Est
    • Nov 2008
    • 8077

    #2
    Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
    (LDS leaders.)

    1) The claim to "modern revelation" by church leaders has struck me as crushingly ironic (on questions of ultra-importance, particularly for an organization claiming moral authority to dictate or guide lives, they have seemingly been the last to know the answer), but the irony seems to be lost on them.

    2) They have been extremely old for a long time. This may to a large degree explain 1) above. Remember what happened to the Soviet Union when it deviated from a gerontocracy and called a 51-year old as General Secretary.

    3) I wonder if they are still so deified, and if they have lost some of their swagger. When I was active in the LDS Church nearly 3 decades ago, LDS leaders' confidence in themselves, and mainstream members' willingness to accept their every word as verity, even regarding dissent as a form of sin or transgression, was itself an institution. I can't tell if this has changed, because it seems any active LDS I have much contact with anymore is quite a lot like me. I may not be exposed to a cross-section, however. I think LDS leaders' desire to maintain their aura of deity explains the last clause of 1) above.

    4) I think Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were fascinating, brilliant characters, ideal for building a founding myth around. Smith's foibles in a way add to his mystique. Young's are not out of the norm for a prophet leading a people in the wilderness. In a sense, Smith and Young really were prophets, depending on what the word means to you. LDS leaders since them have been less interesting, and today's leaders seem to have little in common with Smith and Young. They seem to be most like leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention.
    Do you mean that changing of the church manual is not revelation? That putting in new policies of correlation aren't divinely inspired?

    Oh wait ....

    Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using Tapatalk
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

    Comment

    • PaloAltoCougar
      Semper infra dignitatem
      • Nov 2008
      • 16965

      #3
      I'm enjoying the thought that Spencer W. Kimball, the man in charge at or around the time of SU's alienation from the church, is presumably the prime example of our leaders once having had more "swagger." That dude could strut and preen like nobody's business.

      Comment

      • TripletDaddy
        sweet triple
        • Nov 2008
        • 58186

        #4
        Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
        I'm enjoying the thought that Spencer W. Kimball, the man in charge at or around the time of SU's alienation from the church, is presumably the prime example of our leaders once having had more "swagger." That dude could strut and preen like nobody's business.
        I've heard stories of LDS women tossing their garments onstage while SWK sang his classic, "Tis Not Unusual to be Loved by Thee"
        Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

        sigpic

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        • wally
          <><><><><><><><>
          • Jun 2010
          • 4137

          #5
          Originally posted by TripletDaddy View Post
          I've heard stories of LDS women tossing their garments onstage while SWK sang his classic, "Tis Not Unusual to be Loved by Thee"
          They were probably the dry silk. Everybody knows that's what the "loose" Molly Mo's wear.

          Comment

          • SeattleUte
            Faith crisis consultant
            • Nov 2008
            • 20837

            #6
            Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
            I'm enjoying the thought that Spencer W. Kimball, the man in charge at or around the time of SU's alienation from the church, is presumably the prime example of our leaders once having had more "swagger." That dude could strut and preen like nobody's business.
            The General Conference intonation is a form of swagger. He very much had it.
            When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

            --Jonathan Swift

            Comment

            • Pheidippides
              Liberal Feminazi
              • Nov 2008
              • 14759

              #7
              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
              The General Conference intonation is a form of swagger. He very much had it.
              No, I'm pretty sure that was just his missing vocal cords.
              Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

              Comment

              • Green Monstah
                Royal Rooter
                • Aug 2010
                • 14020

                #8
                Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                The General Conference intonation is a form of swagger. He very much had it.
                A guy in the ward I grew up in lived nearby SWK's place in Eastern AZ. He's got some pretty funny stories about him (this guy got ex'd and didn't get re-baptized for two decades). Said he was the most sincere person he'd ever met and that he often cursed at livestock. So, on the ranch, he definitely had swagger.
                Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

                Comment

                • UtahDan
                  *
                  • Nov 2008
                  • 14496

                  #9
                  Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                  I'm enjoying the thought that Spencer W. Kimball, the man in charge at or around the time of SU's alienation from the church, is presumably the prime example of our leaders once having had more "swagger." That dude could strut and preen like nobody's business.


                  I wouldn't be scoffing at his swagger if I were you.

                  Comment

                  • UtahDan
                    *
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 14496

                    #10
                    Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                    I'm enjoying the thought that Spencer W. Kimball, the man in charge at or around the time of SU's alienation from the church, is presumably the prime example of our leaders once having had more "swagger." That dude could strut and preen like nobody's business.
                    Seriously though, I do think there is something to the idea that most of the current leadership were first called during the age of correlation and very there are very few who are willing to blow correlation off and make doctrinal pronouncements. Bruce McConkie wasn't afraid to be out on limb, same for Joseph Fielding Smith. I think Elder Packer is a softer version with a couple of the things he has said.

                    The history of the church began with lots of doctrinal speculation and open disagreement between the brethren and has marched ever since toward at least apparent unanimity. I say apparent because I do think they disagree, but I think that now they are very disciplined about not showing that to the membership. There are no modern Orson Pratts.

                    Comment

                    • Blueintheface
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 15382

                      #11
                      You know what I often do at 5:30 am on a Monday morning: speculate about the leadership of the Branch Davidians and other religious organizations.

                      Was David Koresh really the Messiah?

                      Did those Arizona folks really catch a ride on the Hale Bop express?

                      Did Jim Jones ever find that Utopia he was looking for at the bottom of that Koolaid jug?

                      Sometimes I can't stay asleep, it affects me just that much.
                      "Either evolution or intelligent design can account for the athlete, but neither can account for the sports fan." - Robert Brault

                      "Once I seen the trades go down and the other guys signed elsewhere," he said, "I knew it was my time now." - Derrick Favors

                      Comment

                      • SeattleUte
                        Faith crisis consultant
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 20837

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Blueintheface View Post
                        You know what I often do at 5:30 am on a Monday morning: speculate about the leadership of the Branch Davidians and other religious organizations.

                        Was David Koresh really the Messiah?

                        Did those Arizona folks really catch a ride on the Hale Bop express?

                        Did Jim Jones ever find that Utopia he was looking for at the bottom of that Koolaid jug?

                        Sometimes I can't stay asleep, it affects me just that much.
                        What a damning admission.
                        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                        --Jonathan Swift

                        Comment

                        • Jarid in Cedar
                          CS Institutional Memory
                          • Jun 2009
                          • 13234

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Blueintheface View Post
                          You know what I often do at 5:30 am on a Monday morning: speculate about the leadership of the Branch Davidians and other religious organizations.

                          Was David Koresh really the Messiah?

                          Did those Arizona folks really catch a ride on the Hale Bop express?

                          Did Jim Jones ever find that Utopia he was looking for at the bottom of that Koolaid jug?

                          Sometimes I can't stay asleep, it affects me just that much.
                          My FIL made a comment about how delusional the Hale-Bop folks were to believe that a comet would take them to heaven. I said "any more delusional than believing a man would be raised from the dead on the 3rd day?"

                          It was a very short conversation
                          "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

                          "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

                          "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

                          -Rick Majerus

                          Comment

                          • Green Monstah
                            Royal Rooter
                            • Aug 2010
                            • 14020

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
                            My FIL made a comment about how delusional the Hale-Bop folks were to believe that a comet would take them to heaven. I said "any more delusional than believing a man would be raised from the dead on the 3rd day?"

                            It was a very short conversation
                            Were the Hale Bop people from AZ? I thought they were all Californians.
                            Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                            "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

                            Comment

                            • Sullyute
                              a day late/a dollar short
                              • Jul 2010
                              • 3308

                              #15
                              Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                              There are no modern Orson Pratts.
                              is this because all those that have tried have been ex'd?


                              Edit: As a follow up does the Church even ex people anymore for expressing contrarian views as long as they don't work for the Church/BYU or old high Church callings (bishop/stake president)? It makes you wonder with the internet whether we actually have 100's of Orson Pratts today it is just a matter of finding them in interspace...?
                              Last edited by Sullyute; 12-20-2010, 01:02 PM.
                              "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

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