Your thoughts on church leaders

[Sullyute]

The best inspiration in the Church comes from those who are the smartest.

Insert Asian or Lawyer vs. Doctor/Engineer in Church leadership Joke here...

[ERCougar]

we have leaders for all sorts of reasons. this is a massive organization that requires people at all levels to make it go, to make pronouncements, to oversee resources, to tend to the welfare of our members, etc.

You do your argument a bit of disservice when you make it sound that leaders are primarily here to tell everyone what to do and how to do it.

This.

Every organization needs a leader. Even if they didn't have a thing to say to us, we'd still need one.

[RobinFinderson]

To prompt ideas for personal reflection. The same reason I would read a book. I'm not understanding why this is such a troublesome approach. We're not in the military.

Bingo! This is what it means to 'follow the prophet.' Hell, I STILL follow the prophet, which means that I pay attention to what he says, and I use his words as a prompt for personal reflection.

Any definition of 'follow the prophet' that encourages people to do things that seem somewhat morally and/or ethically questionable, but to do them with faith in the source, OR any POV that projects so much credibility onto a source that the free agent would never consider the possibility that counsel from the source might be morally and/or ethically questionable, IS HARMFUL TO PEOPLE.

[wally]

Insert Asian or Lawyer vs. Doctor/Engineer in Church leadership Joke here...

This is the biggest threat to my testimony. That there aren't more engineers in church leadership.

[cowboy]

this seems to be a bit of reductio ad absurdum.

we have leaders for all sorts of reasons. this is a massive organization that requires people at all levels to make it go, to make pronouncements, to oversee resources, to tend to the welfare of our members, etc.

You do your argument a bit of disservice when you make it sound that leaders are primarily here to tell everyone what to do and how to do it.

I almost changed my post to ask why our leaders counsel us, but I figured everyone would assume that's what I meant. Apparently not.

I don't see an argument anywhere in that post. I'm asking a lot of questions, but not taking a position. Further, my position in this thread has never advocated blind obedience (whatever that means,) or to imply that our leaders should guide the minutia of our lives, so I'm not sure what argument you think I'm making.

In terms of responses to my question, ER provided a good one, in my opinion.

[cowboy]

To prompt ideas for personal reflection. The same reason I would read a book. I'm not understanding why this is such a troublesome approach. We're not in the military.

This is a reasonable answer, and I find nothing troubling about it. I might have a somewhat different opinion, but I certainly have no problem with yours.

[LA Ute]

I would be very curious to see how Dallin Oaks defines blind obedience.

I don't mean to be contentious, but let me ask you: How do you define it? I'm only asking because "blind obedience" is often used as a discussion-stopper (like "racism") and serves only to polarize the discussion and put the one accused of such obedience on the defensive.

[TripletDaddy]

I almost changed my post to ask why our leaders counsel us, but I figured everyone would assume that's what I meant. Apparently not.

I don't see an argument anywhere in that post. I'm asking a lot of questions, but not taking a position. Further, my position in this thread has never advocated blind obedience (whatever that means,) or to imply that our leaders should guide the minutia of our lives, so I'm not sure what argument you think I'm making.

In terms of responses to my question, ER provided a good one, in my opinion.

You asked why we have leaders at all. I thought I listed several reasons why we have leaders.

[RobinFinderson]

How do you define it? "blind obedience" is...

Blind obedience:

Any definition of 'follow the prophet' that encourages people to do things that seem somewhat morally and/or ethically questionable, but to do them with faith in the source, OR any POV that projects so much credibility onto a source that the free agent would never consider the possibility that counsel from the source might be morally and/or ethically questionable, IS HARMFUL TO PEOPLE.

[LA Ute]

Blind obedience:

Thanks. I am waiting for Lebowski.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't mean to be contentious, but let me ask you: How do you define it? I'm only asking because "blind obedience" is often used as a discussion-stopper (like "racism") and serves only to polarize the discussion and put the one accused of such obedience on the defensive.

I think some decent definitions have been offered already, but I would say anytime someone says "Person X is my leader. I am going to do whatever person X tells me to do, no matter the circumstances." In other words, unquestioning, uncritical obedience to every directive. A prime example would be "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done."

There may be a number of reasons for accepting that kind of a leader-follower dynamic (military, religion, corporate, etc.) and blind obedience can be a good thing and highly effective in certain situations. I just don't see it as a healthy and sustainable approach in a religious context.

[BlueHair]

Why can divine guidance not come from a stake presidents mind? Why can divine guidance only come from the spirit? God gave us our ability to reason and I personally think that when we study things out in our mind that can be a form of revelation. This seems to be in line with many scriptures. Also, wasn't it James and John that accompanied Peter to visit the man Adam?

The method of receiving the inspiration isn't important to me. The source is. If the Stake President is sharp and can think of good ideas, I would certainly think about them. I'm not so hard-headed as to dismiss a good idea for no reason. I also wouldn't have any problem not following him if I didn't like it.

[creekster]

I think some decent definitions have been offered already, but I would say anytime someone says "Person X is my leader. I am going to do whatever person X tells me to do, no matter the circumstances." In other words, unquestioning, uncritical obedience to every directive. A prime example would be "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done."

There may be a number of reasons for accepting that kind of a leader-follower dynamic (military, religion, corporate, etc.) and blind obedience can be a good thing and highly effective in certain situations. I just don't see it as a healthy and sustainable approach in a religious context.

Who says that? No one says that and means it. Not even the military expects that sort of obedience. People may say that, and they may have a spiritual witness to follow the counsel of a leader, but they are also free to reject it and, if it offends their sensibilities they should seek their own confirmation or path. We are all judged for our own transgressions, after all.

I think there are benefits, blessings if you will, for many principles such as sacrifice and selflessness and these will operate whether or not the motivating factor for performing them is a divine directive or a peachy idea by a SP. Most believers will do what a SP says because he is the SP and we will benefit from the choice whether or not it is directly from God. At the same time, the same set of people would need to obtain their own confirmation if the directive was to slay Laban, or move to Missouri, or some such. The notion of 'blind obedience' is so oft criticized but, in my experience, only a very few persons (VERY few) would ever qualify as actually being in that category.

[RobinFinderson]

Thanks. I am waiting for Lebowski.

I accept your apology.

[SloanHater]

The method of receiving the inspiration isn't important to me. The source is. If the Stake President is sharp and can think of good ideas, I would certainly think about them. I'm not so hard-headed as to dismiss a good idea for no reason. I also wouldn't have any problem not following him if I didn't like it.

That's a shock.