Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[scottie]

Would you have any problem with the church allowing businesses in CCC to serve alcohol? Would there be any fallout? I would think Mormons who are uneasy with Marriotts selling porn would have a problem it.

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top...VTHOeCp4w.cspx

[LiveCoug]

There will definitely be restaraunts in CCC that will have liquour licenses. No big deal.

[pellegrino]

if members get their panties in a wad over this then there is no hope for them. the real issue with city creek has nothing to do with selling liquor.

[scottie]

There will definitely be restaraunts in CCC that will have liquour licenses. No big deal.

You really think no big deal? The church is the developer and the owner.

[scottie]

if members get their panties in a wad over this then there is no hope for them. the real issue with city creek has nothing to do with selling liquor.

Talk to me.

[LiveCoug]

You really think no big deal? The church is the developer and the owner.

Nope. No big deal.

[ERCougar]

Talk to me.

The use of church funds in speculative ventures that have little or nothing to do with the mission of the church, I'm guessing.

[Moliere]

The use of church funds in speculative ventures that have little or nothing to do with the mission of the church, I'm guessing.

Agreed. I struggle with this one as I see it as an unnecessary business venture. This is not the church building a mill or financing a bank upon the arrival of poor saints into Utah. This is the construction of semi-high end apartment buildings.

[Moliere]

Also, if Mormon mullahs are so concerned about church-owned property selling liquor, they should take to heart the words of Joseph F. Smith in one of his conference addresses:

http://books.google.com/books?id=isD...page&q&f=false

[LiveCoug]

Agreed. I struggle with this one as I see it as an unnecessary business venture. This is not the church building a mill or financing a bank upon the arrival of poor saints into Utah. This is the construction of semi-high end apartment buildings.

I think it's a great thing giving back to downtown SLC. It also doesn't hurt that it will bring a lot of visitors to the area...

[woot]

Also, if Mormon mullahs are so concerned about church-owned property selling liquor, they should take to heart the words of Joseph F. Smith in one of his conference addresses:

http://books.google.com/books?id=isD...page&q&f=false

Where's the justification? What is he saying other than that it is acceptable before god for his church to profit by peddling sin?

[pellegrino]

Talk to me.

You addressed it well yourself.

The church is the developer and the owner.

ERCougar got it right too.

The use of church funds in speculative ventures that have little or nothing to do with the mission of the church, I'm guessing.

As did Eddie

Agreed. I struggle with this one as I see it as an unnecessary business venture. This is not the church building a mill or financing a bank upon the arrival of poor saints into Utah. This is the construction of semi-high end apartment buildings.

How does city creek further the fourfold mission of the church? How do any of the for profit businesses owned by the church further its purpose and mission as the Kingdom of God on the earth?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Long time lurker, first time poster (I know, I know...)

Technically speaking, the City Creek Center is NOT by contributed church funds but by the business holding company of the church, "Deseret Management Corporation", who owns Beneficial Life, Deseret Book, Bonneville Communications (KSL, radio stations across the US, including here in Seattle, in Cali, around Boston, DC, NYC, a few other places I have been), Zions Securities, Deseret News, assets willed to the church, etc.

To say that "tithing dollars" are used directly to fund the center is not entirely accurate.

That said, I don't know that it is possible to make a distinction between the first presidency, who runs both the church, and Deseret Management Corporation, and church moneys derived from contributions.

The way I see it, tithing funds the church and the leadership thereof, who also run the management corp who is laying a $3B egg in downtown SLC.

Interesting dichotomy to say the least. I have to say I am quite conflicted over it. The center WILL be nice, but will also be a significant lightning rod downtown.

How does city creek further the fourfold mission of the church? How do any of the for profit businesses owned by the church further its purpose and mission as the Kingdom of God on the earth?

I have no idea. I am of the belief that they should divest themselves of many of these companies the same way they liquidated ZCMI and LDS Hospital. Obviously they are quite profitable.

[All-American]

How does city creek further the fourfold mission of the church? How do any of the for profit businesses owned by the church further its purpose and mission as the Kingdom of God on the earth?

The only argument you could even remotely make that this project furthers the fourfold mission of the church (hey, how long has it been since we've heard anybody else refer to the fourth fold? I'm starting to wonder if that's really what we're doing) is that it keeps the area around temple square from turning into a slum. This is an awfully expensive homemaking project, though.

Of the arguments I've heard against the propriety of the City Creek Center project, however, I've yet to hear that it isn't a brilliant move, financially speaking. A lot of it seems like really good luck-- planning a construction project of this magnitude right at the culmination of a trend of urbanization and during a major recession, when contractors are taking whatever work they can get, may be more a stroke of luck than of genius. Maybe the only way you can "justify" this, if you really feel like it needs to be justified, is that it will contribute to the financial security that will allow the church to focus on the folds of its mission.

[pellegrino]

The only argument you could even remotely make that this project furthers the fourfold mission of the church (hey, how long has it been since we've heard anybody else refer to the fourth fold? I'm starting to wonder if that's really what we're doing) is that it keeps the area around temple square from turning into a slum. This is an awfully expensive homemaking project, though.

That's a very poor argument, one I would hope you're smart enough not to make.

Of the arguments I've heard against the propriety of the City Creek Center project, however, I've yet to hear that it isn't a brilliant move, financially speaking. A lot of it seems like really good luck-- planning a construction project of this magnitude right at the culmination of a trend of urbanization and during a major recession, when contractors are taking whatever work they can get, may be more a stroke of luck than of genius. Maybe the only way you can "justify" this, if you really feel like it needs to be justified, is that it will contribute to the financial security that will allow the church to focus on the folds of its mission.

Once again, how do brilliant financial moves or even financial security relate directly to the purpose of the church? Does this mean that heaven will be a large corporation? Does the church's ability to provide access to salvation depend upon its financial security? What do for profit businesses have to do with religion, particularly with regards to what James preaches on the subject? If, as its proponents suggest, there are no tithing funds being used for this project, then how will the profits directly affect the church? Yes, I know that all of the church's businesses pay a tithing, but what happens to the rest of their profits? I fail to see how making oodles and oodles of money brings anyone closer to Christ. I do, however see the church eliminating janitors for all of its buildings. The change has been billed in our stake as a means of cutting costs in a tough economy. Salvation through corporate strategies is wonderful.

Long time lurker, first time poster (I know, I know...)

Technically speaking, the City Creek Center is NOT by contributed church funds but by the business holding company of the church, "Deseret Management Corporation", who owns Beneficial Life, Deseret Book, Bonneville Communications (KSL, radio stations across the US, including here in Seattle, in Cali, around Boston, DC, NYC, a few other places I have been), Zions Securities, Deseret News, assets willed to the church, etc.

To say that "tithing dollars" are used directly to fund the center is not entirely accurate.[/QUOTE]

Where did the church get the money to start these for profit ventures? To say that tithing dollars aren't used to fund city creek (which is what I have heard from official channels of communication) isn't entirely accurate either.

ps-find the cat's out of the bag, you need to get over to ellis island. don't let my sourpuss attitude about the church's corporate structure/culture dissuade you from using a certain template.