Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[All-American]

That's a very poor argument, one I would hope you're smart enough not to make.

Not with a straight face, I wouldn't.

Once again, how do brilliant financial moves or even financial security relate directly to the purpose of the church? Does this mean that heaven will be a large corporation? Does the church's ability to provide access to salvation depend upon its financial security? What do for profit businesses have to do with religion, particularly with regards to what James preaches on the subject? If, as its proponents suggest, there are no tithing funds being used for this project, then how will the profits directly affect the church? Yes, I know that all of the church's businesses pay a tithing, but what happens to the rest of their profits? I fail to see how making oodles and oodles of money brings anyone closer to Christ. I do, however see the church eliminating janitors for all of its buildings. The change has been billed in our stake as a means of cutting costs in a tough economy. Salvation through corporate strategies is wonderful.

Meh. Stuff costs money. Buildings cost money. Ward budgets cost money. I don't mind seeing the church make financially sound investments if it means that the church can afford to fulfill more of the things it perceives as its needs. Though I do respect the perspective and acknowledge the merits of your point, this whole thing just doesn't bother me that much.

[grapevine]

The CCC I think Gordon mentioned it in GC before. Was not funded with tithing at all but with money the church earns in its for profit businesses. there aim is to make a profit. Brings some money into the church. Tithing was not used for it though.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Where did the church get the money to start these for profit ventures? To say that tithing dollars aren't used to fund city creek (which is what I have heard from official channels of communication) isn't entirely accurate either.

as I wrote it, "not 'entirely' true" = "has a certain degree of truth to it".

I do not recall the history behind the founding of Beneficial Life but a solid, strong insurance company like that must be enormously profitable over time. Was this started using tithing funds? Possibly.

Bonneville Broadcasting, as I recall, started as a radio outlet to distribute 'Music and the Spoken Word' and MoTab broadcasts back in the early days of radio. It grew from there. Very likely that was started using tithing funds. Bonneville owns radio stations all over the place now, very often the ones on AM who carry Limbaugh and Hannity and Beck. I am too lazy (read: 'indifferent') to actually look up the number of stations they own, but it IS a big business.

I believe the line of logic allowing the statement: "No tithing funds were used..." to be accurate would depend upon the frame of reference (and I would require a bit of background info). Deseret Management Corp (DMC) was set up in the mid 60's by Pres McKay to handle all the dealings of the for-profit enterprises of the church, thus preserving their tax-exempt non-profit status.

If we take a slice of time beginning AFTER this point up to the present, then the argument can be made that no tithing contribution dollars flow toward the for-profit enterprises as there is a necessary seperation between the two.

If however our frame of reference is 1847 - present, then of course tithing dollars are in fact the seed money for the entire grouping of companies.

Add to that fact that the Board of Directors of the DMC is made up from the First Pres, several members of the Quorum of 12, and the Presiding Bishopric.

Of course I wish the church could claim to be self-sustaining but that simply isn't the case. I also wish to believe that byu is self-sustaining and no tithing funds flow there.

In the end I have no idea where the money goes, or whom to trust on the matter. It may very well be possible that actual tithing funds go toward the for-profit side but that can't and won't be proven one way or another unless the church opens its books (won't happen between now and through my great-great-grandchildrens' lifetimes).

Mark me as conflicted on the whole tithing thing anyway. Not exactly a big believer in it, and the "I paid my tithing and miraculously the mortgage was paid..." stories make my skin crawl.

Now, in answer to the original question, I have to follow with another question: If this place is to contain upscale restaurants, is it in the church's best interest that the restaurants are successful and stay in business?

The answer to that question will answer the first. Statistically speaking, restaurants operate with food (especially bread, if 'free') being a loss leader and make up the difference on the drinks. Fountain drinks make money for the first few refills, but after that the restaurant begins to go backward.

The typical $30-for-dinner-for-two restaurant chains make about as much, or even less, actual profit on an entree than on a fountain drink. Beer from the tap, wine by the glass, and mixed drinks are almost pure profit. Now if the typical couple having two drinks each at gives 4 drinks worth of profit, and the restaurant makes a good return with little material and labor costs.

I guess I need to ask a second question: Who are the likely patrons of these restaurants? What percentage of them are people stopping by after a temple session? Less than half of the citizens of SLC are active church members if I recall correctly.

I won't be conflicted about it, other than to say it will become a point of contention with both A) strict, devout Mormons and B) people protesting or wishing to do the church harm.

ps-find the cat's out of the bag, you need to get over to ellis island. don't let my sourpuss attitude about the church's corporate structure/culture dissuade you from using a certain template.

Not entirely sure what you mean by 'template' but I will get to Ellis.

I believe we are on the same page with the corporate structure/culture. It is a significant cause of my own disillusionment with the church. Perhaps we are just 'not worthy' of any further revelation at this time, and not humble enough to turn a blind eye to several disturbing moves in SLC.

In the end, it could certainly be far worse. The city and/or county could have bonded it to pay for the whole project. At least this way your non-voluntary taxes won't go up!

Jeez, that was long. Sorry to ramble!

[cowboy]

Would you have any problem with the church allowing businesses in CCC to serve alcohol? Would there be any fallout? I would think Mormons who are uneasy with Marriotts selling porn would have a problem it.

There is a clear distinction between booze and porn. Alcohol is something we have been asked to avoid in this dispensation, while I'm pretty sure porn's taboo is timeless.

All the angst over the Church investing in SLC downtown is unfounded, imo. Sure, tithing was used as seed money to start these businesses, but the companies have long since repaid the initial investment. Now, the dividend paid by these companies (and any company that pays 10% of its earnings out in dividends is a decent investment) helps to build and maintain buildings. But for them, we may still have a ward budget on top of tithes and offerings to pay. Put simply, these investments have been a vehicle for multiplying our tithes, and they have been successful.

[ERCougar]

The issue isn't whether tithing dollars are being used for this venture, although their use would certainly add to the ethical fuzziness. It's whether an organization whose primary purpose is to save souls should be expending energy or thought into ventures that have nothing to do with saving souls. It has the potential for a lot messiness. If a restaurant in the development sells alcohol, then the church will be financing (and profiting from) an activity that it believes will ultimately damn souls. That's a little messy, no?

[scottie]

There is a clear distinction between booze and porn. Alcohol is something we have been asked to avoid in this dispensation, while I'm pretty sure porn's taboo is timeless.

Are you saying that because of this distinction Mormons shouldn't/won't have a problem with the sell of liquor at CCC?

[hostile]

The issue isn't whether tithing dollars are being used for this venture, although their use would certainly add to the ethical fuzziness. It's whether an organization whose primary purpose is to save souls should be expending energy or thought into ventures that have nothing to do with saving souls. It has the potential for a lot messiness. If a restaurant in the development sells alcohol, then the church will be financing (and profiting from) an activity that it believes will ultimately damn souls. That's a little messy, no?

The "messiness", as I see it, comes from hearing "Live within your means" from the pulpit every six months and then seeing the ads for million dollar condos across the street.

[ERCougar]

The "messiness", as I see it, comes from hearing "Live within your means" from the pulpit every six months and then seeing the ads for million dollar condos across the street.

I can see that too, although I think it's a little less clear (million dollar condos are within some people's means...). I only mentioned the alcohol issue as an example because it was the origin of the thread--I think it's really just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think we can even foresee the real potential conflicts of interest that could arise.

[UtahDan]

I can see that too, although I think it's a little less clear (million dollar condos are within some people's means...). I only mentioned the alcohol issue as an example because it was the origin of the thread--I think it's really just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think we can even foresee the real potential conflicts of interest that could arise.

I don't see it as a problem. I think church members expect the church to be run as a for profit business enterprise. There are limits, obviously, but the notion that a particular act is in the financial interest of the business is an adequate explanation for most members. There are businesses that will say "on principle we won't do X" like Chick-fil-A who won't open on Sunday regardless of whether it hurts them.

But no one much cares that the the Marriots sell porn, nor was anyone bothered that the church operated ZCMI mall on Sunday. Yes maybe there is a disconnect there, but that seems to be the state of things.

[Devildog]

I read somewhere that the CCC is the largest private construction project going in the nation right now.

All those contracted companies are making money providing services and employing thousands of people.

Salt Lake City and The State of Utah have just received several honors as leading the west, and even the nation in economic growth and fiscal discipline.

The CCC is right across the street from Temple Square (The church's worldwide headquarters). The church is committed to keeping that area economically viable, stable and productive.

Salt Lake City will gain an image boost in the eyes of visitors from this development. It should provide a return on the money spent for decades to come.

[All-American]

I read somewhere that the CCC is the largest private construction project going in the nation right now.

All those contracted companies are making money providing services and employing thousands of people.

Salt Lake City and The State of Utah have just received several honors as leading the west, and even the nation in economic growth and fiscal discipline.

The CCC is right across the street from Temple Square (The church's worldwide headquarters). The church is committed to keeping that area economically viable, stable and productive.

Salt Lake City will gain an image boost in the eyes of visitors from this development. It should provide a return on the money spent for decades to come.

I can't for the life of me understand why this project has earned the amount of criticism it has. A private entity pumps a ton of money into revitalizing the downtown area, keeping hundreds employed along the way, and you're COMPLAINING? Who wouldn't love to have a neighbor like that?

(That isn't to say, by the way, that I don't understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but the extent to which they bother people within and without the church seems inordinate to me.)

[Surfah]

I can't for the life of me understand why this project has earned the amount of criticism it has. A private entity pumps a ton of money into revitalizing the downtown area, keeping hundreds employed along the way, and you're COMPLAINING? Who wouldn't love to have a neighbor like that?

(That isn't to say, by the way, that I don't understand some of the concerns that have been expressed, but the extent to which they bother people within and without the church seems inordinate to me.)

I agree with you.

[Moliere]

Salt Lake City will gain an image boost in the eyes of visitors from this development. It should provide a return on the money spent for decades to come.

Then we can use those returns to build a huge amusement park dedicated to LDS history and that will bring in huge returns. And then maybe a big waterpark or maybe a grocery store chain.

I don't have issues with the church being organized like a business. In fact it only makes sense that when you have volunteers running the church that have spent most of their lives in business they would run it in the way they know. I do have a problem with church projects being selected on profit when there are more pressing needs for the money.

Also, why do we need high end apartments downtown? Is that what the church thinks brings a good ambience? Wouldn't it be better to build some homeless shelters so when people got out of the temple the could go serve in the shelters.

[Devildog]

I think the church has been running profit making businesses the entire time it has been in the Salt Lake Valley.

The church has run the buildings and office commercial/ retail across from Temple Square since the buildings were originally built.

[wuapinmon]

1. If you have the faith to pay tithing, then it shouldn't ultimately matter where the money goes.

2. I'm not cleaning the damned ward building. I fell for "Celestial Service" once before.

3. Saying that these companies are not funded by tithing money is splitting hairs.

4. I wonder if the Church Office Building is cleaned by its employees.

5. I'd rather see the church open homeless shelters and after-school programs with paid employees than fancy shopping centers.