Unfortunate Byproduct of Elder Packer's Talk

[I.J. Reilly]

I know that Elder Packer's talk has been worked over mercilessly here for the past week and a half, but I wanted to put forward this recent Facebook interaction between a friend and her long-time acquaintance as evidence of the unintended consequences of Elder Packer's words. Unfortunately, I feel like his words have been used as a shield for uninformed LDS opinion and attacks on the nonconforming. Here is the conversation:

Original Facebook wall post:

Saying that being homosexual is genetic is like saying that being a serial killer is genetic. Should we let serial killers kill whoever they want?

(A note on the above wall posting: this wall posting is from memory and may not be verbatim. Because of the circumstances that followed, the verbatim wall posting was not available. Also, D & A are a couple who share a joint Facebook account and are approximately 24 years old. D is the male and original author of the post, A is the female.)

Comment on the post from my friend, C:

This comment is ignorant and offensive. Comparing homosexuals to serial killers is wrong and hurtful. I hope that you never have a homosexual child so you don't have to worry about them.

D & A then de-friend C and send the following via Facebook messages:

C this is A, D's wife.

First of all please do not tell me about raising children and the worries that come with raising them, we have 2 and one day when you become a mother THEN you will understand the worries that come with being a parent.

And FYI, we each have a SIBLING that are openly gay in case you didn't know which I am guessing you didn't. And David's sibling just happens to be my very favorite member of his family and the one I am closest with. No one should be bullied or singled out because of their lifestyle and no one should have their beliefs imposed upon and with that being said DO NOT tell me what my church leaders can say and cannot after all we (LDS members) believe that these leaders are called of God do we not? After all that is why we raise our hand to sustain them, so ultimately where is the counsel coming from? He said that our Heavenly Father wouldn't do that to us because He is our Father and we are loved, how does he know this? His own opinion? Probably not and if you think so then maybe you should pray about it.

D's comment was strictly referring to the statement that it has to do with "genetics" we do not know enough about that to really spout that all over the place and he made a comparison to something else which is thought of to be about "genetics"

And last, these are your church leaders as well as mine.

C responded with the following:

A,

First of all, my message was to D, not you. But whatever, it seems like you run point on opinions in your family anyways.

Secondly, do not ignorantly assume that because I do not yet have kids means I wouldn’t understand the worries of being a parent. I am sure you look down on me already for not yet having kids. I’ve skimmed your blog, and I know your opinions on waiting to have kids. I must be selfish right? I mean, I’ve been married for 3 ½ years, and waiting to have my own insurance rather than mooching off the state is clearly selfish on my part.

A, Facebook is a public forum, and you can't expect to post something publically and not get backlash from people who strongly disagree with you; especially when the post is highly offensive to others. Say what you will about the reasoning behind the post, but to me and probably others, it was wrong to draw a similarity between gay individuals and serial killers.

With what has been happening lately around this country with the gay suicides, it is damaging to post something that can be, and was, construed as offensive. It is damaging and hurtful to the gay population as well as damaging to the LDS religion. Do you really want to be seen as the person that post reflects? Leave the issue alone if you don't as you say, 'know enough about it.' Have your beliefs and stand up for them, but do not strike out toward others for no apparent reason. If you do this, you will be called out on your opinions, as I did.

My main point was that it is not a black and white issue. The Lord is the only one who knows our hearts. It is not as easy as saying “It’s a choice, and they are sinners for choosing to be attracted to other men.” I don’t believe that was what President Packer was trying to convey. I believe that he was trying to convey the fact that the Lord wouldn’t give us anything we couldn’t overcome. I believe that is true. I just don’t think we should judge those who cannot make the sacrifices necessary.

And last of all, having openly gay siblings does not make you a leading authority on anything. It just makes you more prone to think you are.

You have opinions that offend a lot of people. You are judgmental and self-righteous, and I am glad you de-friended me.

C

Also, next time you message me, could you please research how to use punctuation and grammar? Your entire second paragraph was a giant run-on sentence...

D then replies with the following message:

Wow, calm down C. There was nothing wrong with my post, and I'm sorry it offended you. I wasn't comparing homosexuals to serial killers, merely the fact that they are both born that way, or supposedly born that way. The point was that down the road what else will be cast aside simply because someone is born the way they are. Serial killers are on the extreme end of this spectrum, but what's next? Pedophiles? Bestiality? I know it sounds crazy, but give it 100 years, it will happen, because after all, they are born that way right?

Does this mean I do not love homosexuals? Of course not, and I'm sorry you assumed so. I consider them my brothers and sisters. This doesn't mean I need to shut my mouth, or resist from speaking the truth. I invite them to a better life that leads to greater happiness. A life that is possible. As a member of the church you should know above all others that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has the power to change our very natures. I will not shut my mouth because this might hurt someones feelings. You should also know that the wicked take the truth to be hard. Sometimes too hard. Recall Nephi's brothers had a desire to kill their brother and their father for the truth they spoke. Nephi didn't hold his tongue on account of his brother's feelings, and I won't hold my tongue either.

As far as children go it is the obligation of the parents to teach and keep their children safe. This often entails correcting them when they have done something wrong. Surely you wouldn't be upset if a parent grounded their son or daughter for coming home to late. Parents give rules because they love their children. It is the same with our Eternal Father. You act as if this commandment is a bad thing and shouldn't be talked about because it might hurt someones feelings.

Yes, gays and lesbians are full of love, but they are not full of truth. And such a lifestyle will not lead to happiness. By holding your tongue you do more harm than not.

And finally, if A didn't de-friend you. I was going to for the way you have just spoken to her. I thought a latter day saint might have showed a little more restraint in speech. This is the very reason Paul rebuked the woman in his day. You don't know when to speak, and when to keep your thoughts to yourself.

Finally, A added this as well before permanently blocking C, disallowing C from sending further messages to D & A:

Wow C, first calm down with the emotional out burt. Punctuation? Really that is your dig at me? lol Who did I strike at for no apparent reason? Our FB screen has been flooded for a week now with comments from other members about this talk which is what initiated the comment. And let's get something straight girlie, you keep saying OPINIONS. Tell me what is an opinion that I have said? Not to postpone having children until you can "afford" them, that's my opinion?? Really? No C, we have been told over and over again to not postpone having children for those reasons but I don't care what you do, you're the one missing out on the blessings of having children and GROWING (clearly) not me I only address this because YOU mentioned it. (Was that run on enough for you?)

Second, you are VERY mistaken. SUICIDE is not black and white and THAT is a subject that Heavenly Father knows our hearts and intents however being gay IS BLACK AND WHITE. It is doctrine, so let's get that straight. President Packers talk also instilled hope for those who do want to change and he told them that they can.

I really could care less about what you think of my posts on OUR blog or OUR facebook and honestly quit speaking for everyone else, you keep saying I offended many people...no I didn't, just you. My email has been flooded this morning from people that were glad something was said so don't speak for everyone

My opinions are point in this marriage? Umm I recall D being the one that posted the comment not me. We are EQUAL in this marriage and we share this account. In addition to that I will always support my husband, I am his helpmeet.

And if people are going to demand that my religion allows same sex marriages in the Temple I should-what did you say? "leave it alone"? You're crazy to think I would do such a thing. We are to not judge but ALSO NOT CONDONE. As President Monson has said you need to put BOTH hands on the church Although having gay siblings (which you have been "so" sensitive to) doesn't make us "experts" it does make us more understanding and compassionate to those who are. And we are but we believe in CHOICE and I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE for that because that is the MAIN reason we are here is agency. So I am not responsible for the choices anyone else makes and neither is our church. And trust me, YOU DO NOT know the worries that come with having children until you have them yourself, you can have an idea but will never fully comprehend until you do.

Last, if believing in all the things we are taught both from our scriptures and the mouthpieces that the Lord has appointed for Him and saying them out loud makes me self righteous THEN I AM PROUD TO BE SO!!! I will ALWAYS support my leaders 100% Always.

Also I'm sorry that taking you off our list has offended you so, clearly but your out burst is good enough reason as to why I did.

Ugh.

[byu71]

I know that Elder Packer's talk has been worked over mercilessly here for the past week and a half, but I wanted to put forward this recent Facebook interaction between a friend and her long-time acquaintance as evidence of the unintended consequences of Elder Packer's words. Unfortunately, I feel like his words have been used as a shield for uninformed LDS opinion and attacks on the nonconforming. Here is the conversation:

Original Facebook wall post:


(A note on the above wall posting: this wall posting is from memory and may not be verbatim. Because of the circumstances that followed, the verbatim wall posting was not available. Also, D & A are a couple who share a joint Facebook account and are approximately 24 years old. D is the male and original author of the post, A is the female.)

Comment on the post from my friend, C:


D & A then de-friend C and send the following via Facebook messages:


C responded with the following:


D then replies with the following message:


Finally, A added this as well before permanently blocking C, disallowing C from sending further messages to D & A:


Ugh.

Sounds like Cougarboard

[YOhio]

They all come across as idiots, but D takes the cake for this quote:

I thought a latter day saint might have showed a little more restraint in speech. This is the very reason Paul rebuked the woman in his day. You don't know when to speak, and when to keep your thoughts to yourself.

[Indy Coug]

I think we need to rename this forum as The Gayer.

[Moliere]

They all come across as idiots

Agreed. I would bet that all of them would vote against gravity.

[DrumNFeather]

I'm with YOhio, sounds like 3 people who have no idea what they're talking about, but are doing it loudly.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Unbelievable.

[Clark Addison]

You did mean "byproduct" as "benefit", right?

[I.J. Reilly]

I'm with YOhio, sounds like 3 people who have no idea what they're talking about, but are doing it loudly.

Sounds like what we do every day, no?

The real point in my posting this, though, is that since Elder Packer's talk I have felt a real upsurge in openly hostile messages towards gays from LDS members than at any other time that I can recall, including Prop 8. I'm not just talking about on the forums of no consequence on the internets, but on Facebook pages and in tweets, from peers and even out in public places. I feel like I have been confronted with a noticeable uptick of hurtful and possibly damaging statements made with little or no thought. It has been disheartening and disconcerting.

[Green Monstah]

I don't begrudge D for his opinion (though there are a thousand other analogies he could have used), but I firmly believe that this culture of unbridled devotion to LDS leaders is going to be the downfall of our Church.

The thread demonstrates why it's so hard to have meaningful discussions with many active, devout Mormons. Maybe the guy in the DU was right...in the end, our only response to these issues has to be "God's servant said so" because nothing else makes sense.

[TheBYUGuy]

This honestly made me laugh out loud:

In addition to that I will always support my husband, I am his helpmeet.

[Donuthole]

Sounds like what we do every day, no?

The real point in my posting this, though, is that since Elder Packer's talk I have felt a real upsurge in openly hostile messages towards gays from LDS members than at any other time that I can recall, including Prop 8. I'm not just talking about on the forums of no consequence on the internets, but on Facebook pages and in tweets, from peers and even out in public places. I feel like I have been confronted with a noticeable uptick of hurtful and possibly damaging statements made with little or no thought. It has been disheartening and disconcerting.

Sadly, my facebook home page contains a number of very similar conversations.

[wuapinmon]

Sadly, my facebook home page contains a number of very similar conversations.

On mine, I do my best to stick my thumb in them, socratically.

[TheBYUGuy]

Sadly, my facebook home page contains a number of very similar conversations.

I don't face book, and walking by the computer and seeing this type of stuff all over my wife's page makes me really happy about that right now.

[Green Monstah]

I don't face book, and walking by the computer and seeing this type of stuff all over my wife's page makes me really happy about that right now.

I cancelled my account. It creates so many problems in life.