How did you first learn Joseph Smith translated the BOM using peepstone?

[Moliere]

I definitely don't want to tell anyone what they should or should not be interested in or what I think they ought to talk about. But there is some irony when one makes a fact based or reasoned argument respecting a belief that one has not arrived at by facts or reason and could not be moved from it by facts or reason. This is the same point the BYU student was making on the Prop 8 issue in the controversial DH piece.

That's why I cringe at ever attending HP group. I don't know if I can sit through a lesson where the teacher discusses the size of Noah's ark and how it could fit all teh different species of animals in the entire world, while at the same time ignoring the lack of evidence of a world wide flood and the enourmous amount of water it would take to cover the entire earth (remember Mt. Everest is tall). And this even ignores the altitude sickness and freezing temperatures that most of those animals would experience after being at 27,000 feet for about a year.

[creekster]

That's why I cringe at ever attending HP group. I don't know if I can sit through a lesson where the teacher discusses the size of Noah's ark and how it could fit all teh different species of animals in the entire world, while at the same time ignoring the lack of evidence of a world wide flood and the enourmous amount of water it would take to cover the entire earth (remember Mt. Everest is tall). And this even ignores the altitude sickness and freezing temperatures that most of those animals would experience after being at 27,000 feet for about a year.

Not to quibble, but that would leave a couple thousand feet of everest high and dry (not hta it necesasrily had to be covered, did it?) and, if the entire surface of the earth was covered to 27,000 feet wouldn't the air pressure at the surface be pretty much what it is now at sea level?

[Green Monstah]

That's why I cringe at ever attending HP group. I don't know if I can sit through a lesson where the teacher discusses the size of Noah's ark and how it could fit all teh different species of animals in the entire world, while at the same time ignoring the lack of evidence of a world wide flood and the enourmous amount of water it would take to cover the entire earth (remember Mt. Everest is tall). And this even ignores the altitude sickness and freezing temperatures that most of those animals would experience after being at 27,000 feet for about a year.

Not to give credence to a world-wide flood, but is your altitude sickness argument legit? It seems that if the entire earth were covered with water, then the density of the oxygen at sea-level pre-flood would be the same as oxygen level at sea-level during the flood, since the atmosphere would be "pushed outward" so to speak. Edit: I am apparently a hack.

[TheBYUGuy]

The real dilemma here is what Joseph said about it. I'm not sure how you get around translation in light of his own words.

I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them

This is indeed interesting. I agree with you that "I'm not sure how you get around translation in light of his own words", but the word "some" is also quite meaningful. Joseph didn't say he used the U&T and translation for the whole BOM.

[Moliere]

Not to quibble, but that would leave a couple thousand feet of everest high and dry (not hta it necesasrily had to be covered, did it?) and, if the entire surface of the earth was covered to 27,000 feet wouldn't the air pressure at the surface be pretty much what it is now at sea level?

Not to give credence to a world-wide flood, but is your altitude sickness argument legit? It seems that if the entire earth were covered with water, then the density of the oxygen at sea-level pre-flood would be the same as oxygen level at sea-level during the flood, since the atmosphere would be "pushed outward" so to speak. Edit: I am apparently a hack.

I guess we know who the High Priests are on the board.

[Green Monstah]

I guess we know who the High Priests are on the board.

haha...keyword: "if"

[statman]

The basic truth is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God. The particulars of how God's power was manifested is historical curiosity and very secondary to the basic truth.

I'll buy that...

[statman]

please don't tell me we are going to find out gays didn't slip in the back door.

<cringe>

[Uncle Ted]

I first learned about the peepstone in the hat while in college. It was in the required church history (D&C) class and one of the students asked about it. I was also taking a physics class and we were studying optics at the time. Just a week earlier we had learned about pinhole magnifiers (telescopes). Therefore, one of my first thoughts was that Joseph Smith had created a simple pinhole telescope/magnifier using a lens (peepstone) and a pinhole in the bottom of a hat. (See the section entitled Make a telescope with a lens and some foil of this article.) This then could be used to focus on something at a distance away so it could be read given some good light (say, in front of the fireplace like the picture above).

On a side note, I read a few years back that NASA proposed using a giant pinhole telescope to view stars at a great distance away since it would be much easier to get a giant screen with the hole out in space than a giant lens.

[The Rambam]

The basic truth is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God. The particulars of how God's power was manifested is historical curiosity and very secondary to the basic truth.

I'm focused on the idea that it was a translation as opposed to something else. That is what woot was addressing. The reason the church uses the term translation is because that is the term Joseph uses and that is the process he describes.

The apologists have come up with an explanation on this, at least for the Book of Abraham. A revelation/translation hybrid. Like Joseph thought he was translating but really he wasn't. Something like that.

The problem is that we are told repeatedly that Joseph "translated" the golden plates. But sticking your head into a hat with a peepstone and speaking aloud the entire record while the plates are hidden out of sight is not a translation. No one on the planet would call that process a translation from the Reformed Egyptian into English.

So it really looks and smells and walks like a lie when people find out the truth. And some people don't like being lied to. Others do like being wrapped in a comfortable lie and get quite agitated when someone tries to unwrap them.

Bottom line--it is intentionally deceiving to tell a class of young people that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon when you know what they think of as translation does not include hats and pretty rocks.

[wuapinmon]

The problem is that we are told repeatedly that Joseph "translated" the golden plates. But sticking your head into a hat with a peepstone and speaking aloud the entire record while the plates are hidden out of sight is not a translation. No one on the planet would call that process a translation from the Reformed Egyptian into English.

So it really looks and smells and walks like a lie when people find out the truth. And some people don't like being lied to. Others do like being wrapped in a comfortable lie and get quite agitated when someone tries to unwrap them.

Bottom line--it is intentionally deceiving to tell a class of young people that Joseph translated the Book of Mormon when you know what they think of as translation does not include hats and pretty rocks.