How did you first learn Joseph Smith translated the BOM using peepstone?

[woot]

TBH it probably would have been helpful if the church never adopted the version of events that embraced the idea of "translating". It seems to me that "revealed" would be more accurate since very little "translating" as the word is conventionally understood actually took place. I think the word translating initially brought with it a greater sense of legitimacy but now I think it's use actually does more harm than good.

I agree with this. Islam does fine with its story of Mohammad receiving the Koran via revelation, and a similar story would have worked fine for Joseph. The golden plates, and their central role in Mormonism's origin story complicates matters a great deal, however. I imagine this is why the stone in a hat story has been largely suppressed.

[Indy Coug]

Assume it was 100% hat. Would that matter to you at all?

Not at all.

[UtahDan]

I agree with this. Islam does fine with its story of Mohammad receiving the Koran via revelation, and a similar story would have worked fine for Joseph. The golden plates, and their central role in Mormonism's origin story complicates matters a great deal, however. I imagine this is why the stone in a hat story has been largely suppressed.

The real dilemma here is what Joseph said about it. I'm not sure how you get around translation in light of his own words.

35 Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a abreastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted “seers” in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.

52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the aplates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.

62 By this timely aid was I enabled to reach the place of my destination in Pennsylvania; and immediately after my arrival there I commenced copying the characters off the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February following.

Oliver confirmed this (footnote in JSH):

*Oliver Cowdery describes these events thus: “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’

[jay santos]

The real dilemma here is what Joseph said about it. I'm not sure how you get around translation in light of his own words.



Oliver confirmed this (footnote in JSH):

I don't see this as a dilemma at all. It's obvious Joseph copied the characters and spent some time attempting to translate them. see Charles Athon.

As for the Oliver quote, he may be simply describing the peepstone process. The peepstones, as well as the spectacles, were referred to as Urim and Thumim.

[UtahDan]

I don't see this as a dilemma at all. It's obvious Joseph copied the characters and spent some time attempting to translate them. see Charles Athon.

As for the Oliver quote, he may be simply describing the peepstone process. The peepstones, as well as the spectacles, were referred to as Urim and Thumim.

I'm focused on the idea that it was a translation as opposed to something else. That is what woot was addressing. The reason the church uses the term translation is because that is the term Joseph uses and that is the process he describes.

[jay santos]

I'm focused on the idea that it was a translation as opposed to something else. That is what woot was addressing. The reason the church uses the term translation is because that is the term Joseph uses and that is the process he describes.

The apologists have come up with an explanation on this, at least for the Book of Abraham. A revelation/translation hybrid. Like Joseph thought he was translating but really he wasn't. Something like that.

[UtahDan]

The apologists have come up with an explanation on this, at least for the Book of Abraham. A revelation/translation hybrid. Like Joseph thought he was translating but really he wasn't. Something like that.

Well, if the boys at BYU have addressed it, I'll stop worrying about it.

[Pheidippides]

Well, if the boys at BYU have addressed it, I'll stop worrying about it.

Or, in my case, start worrying about it. The apologists do more damage to my beliefs than any other source by a large margin.


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[jay santos]

Well, if the boys at BYU have addressed it, I'll stop worrying about it.

God had to trick Joseph into thinking he was reading Abraham's actual writings in order for Joseph to get himself into the proper revelatory spirit.

[jay santos]

Or, in my case, start worrying about it. The apologists do more damage to my beliefs than any other source by a large margin.


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Ditto.

[Green Monstah]

I believe it was either from the Work and the Glory series or the subsequent research I did after reading those books.

[UtahDan]

Or, in my case, start worrying about it. The apologists do more damage to my beliefs than any other source by a large margin.


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Your problem is that you are trained in argument and rhetoric so you can't help but spot the lousy ones. It's the same reason the musicians in the congregation have a hard time sitting back and enjoying the ward choir.

[UtahDan]

I believe it was either from the Work and the Glory series or the subsequent research I did after reading those books.

Speaking of which, I wonder what it would cost to commission McNaughton to depict Brigham Young handing Henry Jacobs his mission call.

[Moliere]

Your problem is that you are trained in argument and rhetoric so you can't help but spot the lousy ones. It's the same reason the musicians in the congregation have a hard time sitting back and enjoying the ward choir.

You think that is bad, try being a CPA and stake auditor and auditing the financial records that are being kept by a psychologist. Ugh!

The interesting thing about apologists is they can paint themselves into the small corner and they pull out their good ol' Luke 1:37 as their Deus Ex Machina. In the end it boils down to faith and faith alone.

[UtahDan]

You think that is bad, try being a CPA and stake auditor and auditing the financial records that are being kept by a psychologist. Ugh!

The interesting thing about apologists is they can paint themselves into the small corner and they pull out their good ol' Luke 1:37 as their Deus Ex Machina. In the end it boils down to faith and faith alone.

I definitely don't want to tell anyone what they should or should not be interested in or what I think they ought to talk about. But there is some irony when one makes a fact based or reasoned argument respecting a belief that one has not arrived at by facts or reason and could not be moved from it by facts or reason. This is the same point the BYU student was making on the Prop 8 issue in the controversial DH piece.