Has the Foyer ever changed you?

[Moliere]

I wonder how many of these kinds of answers religion can withstand. We keep taking God out of the equation, to the point where if we believe in a god, it's a very lazy and disinterested one.

I've said this before, but the older I get the more deist I become. I fully expect that by retirement I'll be a full fledged Mormon Deist!

I do have a baptist coworker that can't stop mentioning God's involvement in her everyday life. I'm not offended by this, I just find it interesting how some things are always explained to be the will of God. She probably has more faith than me, which is fine. FTR, she's a really cool person.

[UtahDan]

I've said this before, but the older I get the more deist I become. I fully expect that by retirement I'll be a full fledged Mormon Deist!

I do have a baptist coworker that can't stop mentioning God's involvement in her everyday life. I'm not offended by this, I just find it interesting how some things are always explained to be the will of God. She probably has more faith than me, which is fine. FTR, she's a really cool person.

I know what you mean. One the one hand you grow up a member of the church with a view of a very active God. Then you begin to see phenomenally evil things happen to Tom while Jane is getting help finding her lost car keys. It does become easier to believe in a God that is not involved very much when the alternatives are believing in one who is very arbitrary or chalking it up to a holy mystery.

I don't at all belittle those who walk by faith at all times like your friend, however, and know people like that.

[wally]

I agree, I'm sure he was kidding.

Oops. If so, then please disregard the "snark" in my post, Indy.

I have yet to figure Indy out entirely. I need to become a student of Indy's posts.

[ERCougar]

I've said this before, but the older I get the more deist I become. I fully expect that by retirement I'll be a full fledged Mormon Deist!

I do have a baptist coworker that can't stop mentioning God's involvement in her everyday life. I'm not offended by this, I just find it interesting how some things are always explained to be the will of God. She probably has more faith than me, which is fine. FTR, she's a really cool person.

I'm pretty much following the same trajectory. The older I get, the less involved I view God to be in my life.
I know I'm not saying anything new or interesting here--I almost deleted my comment. Just a thought I keep having.

[UtahDan]

Oops. If so, then please disregard the "snark" in my post, Indy.

I have yet to figure Indy out entirely. I need to become a student of Indy's posts.

I'm not sure any of us have. My perception is that he has pretty nuanced views on many things, but also enjoys poking holes in comments that are critical of the church, it's doctrines, leaders, etc. so it gives the appearance that he is always toting the party line. I think he is orthodox but not as orthodox as people have him pegged.

[byu71]

I am pretty set in my ways so it is pretty hard to have conversations change my thinking a lot. My thoughts toward so called intellectuals has changed, but I don't know if that has come from just conversations in the forum.

I do enjoy getting eveyones thoughts and perspectives on subjects. I have especially enjoyed them now that substance is discussed and the slurrs toward men I hold in high regard have subsided a great deal. I certainly don't mind attacking their opinions, but the character shots I have problems with.

Discussions in here are ones I would never have in a Sunday School or Priesthood setting or at a family gathering. I don't know if it is because I don't want to shake anyones belief or perhaps, I just don't want those few fellow members feel the need to get a hold of me and get me back on the straight and narrow approaching me.

There is this guy in the ward that is truly a great guy. A couple of years ago I stopped going to Priesthood meeting. After I was missing for awhile he dropped by on a Sunday and said, '71, I was driving by and felt inspired to stop and see you. Now I have been around the block and knew that was the set up that God wanted him to come, not just him. He then said, '71, you are a really good guy and should be coming to Priesthood meeting. I said, brother........I am still a really good guy whether I come or not. Poor guy, he just didn't have a come back except, yea.

I am rambling. Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to share feelings in here and not feel there will be a knock on my door by someone worried about my salvation.

[byu71]

I think he is orthodox but not as orthodox as people have him pegged.

Of course he isn't. I have seen him use the F word and he has never been Christlike towards me.

[Indy Coug]

...and he has never been Christlike towards me.

When you finally start following the Golden Rule....

[creekster]

Why would God wire some of us to believe in him and others not? That seems like a HUGE unfair advantage.

It would seem like those that are gifted to believe are given an huge, instant, lasting advantage right out of the chute.

You tell me. It's in the scriptures. Some are given to have faith/believe. Surely this squares with your own experience? It does with mine. I marvel at how profoundly some people belieove and how, for others, there is nothing but skepticism. As Mormons we all easily accept the idea that we come to this life to learn and deal with challenges and those differ from person to person. We know God will allow for those differences when we are judged. My guess is this difference in ability to believe is just one of those for which He will account.

[Sleeping in EQ]

For the most part, I think the Foyer is healthy for the people who post in here. I usually learn something and have great conversations. Even though many of us strongly disagree about things, hackles aren't raised all that often.

[RC Vikings]

Why would God wire some of us to believe in him and others not? That seems like a HUGE unfair advantage.

It would seem like those that are gifted to believe are given an huge, instant, lasting advantage right out of the chute.

Why can some people sit through a nine inning MLB game and love every minute of it and others are ready to leave after the first inning. I think this religion thing just comes easier for some much like watching a game. All we can do is just the best we can with what we are blessed with and stop comparing ourselves to others.

[byu71]

Why can some people sit through a nine inning MLB game and love every minute of it and others are ready to leave after the first inning. I think this religion thing just comes easier for some much like watching a game. All we can do is just the best we can with what we are blessed with and stop comparing ourselves to others.

This is one of the reasons I truly do believe in a pre-existence. One of my brothers just believes. He isn't dumb. He is very successful. He is well liked. However, any conversations that go beyond a simple belief when it comes to the church, he has no interest in. We are very different that way, but raised by the same parents and we are not that far apart in age.

As I mentioned, I recoil when someone tries to love and care for me into coming to meetings. On the other hand I have heard of stories from people who are so greatful someone cared enough for them to express that and it got them reactivated. I really wouldn't be surprised to someday hear about a loving member of the church whose care is the reason SU becomes a HP group leader.

[RobinFinderson]

This is one of the reasons I truly do believe in a pre-existence. One of my brothers just believes. He isn't dumb. He is very successful. He is well liked. However, any conversations that go beyond a simple belief when it comes to the church, he has no interest in. We are very different that way, but raised by the same parents and we are not that far apart in age.

I have an active brother who is actually a closeted agnostic, and he would fit this description to a tee. In fact, I think this description would apply to the many closeted atheists and agnostics who are active Mormons, and here is why -- Church activity has contributed to their success and popularity, and because a huge part of their social life is tied to the church, they simply can't part with that, but they aren't interested in discussing anything beyond 'simple belief' because as a closeted atheist/agnostic, none of that really interests them.

Now I'm not saying anything specific about your brother. I'm just saying that your description of an apparent 'believer' would also fit a lot of closeted unbelievers.

[byu71]

I have an active brother who is actually a closeted agnostic, and he would fit this description to a tee. In fact, I think this description would apply to the many closeted atheists and agnostics who are active Mormons, and here is why -- Church activity has contributed to their success and popularity, and because a huge part of their social life is tied to the church, they simply can't part with that, but they aren't interested in discussing anything beyond 'simple belief' because as a closeted atheist/agnostic, none of that really interests them.

Now I'm not saying anything specific about your brother. I'm just saying that your description of an apparent 'believer' would also fit a lot of closeted unbelievers.

I will not dispute what you say is true about some people. In my brothers situation, that is not the case and I know you didn't say it was. I just had to make sure I was clear about my brother.

He may have had in depth conversations with his wife and children, I don't know. I just know he hasn't with me and this forum would not be his cup of tea.

As a matter of fact, once in a while he will call me up and let me know someone has called him and said I am getting carried away on CB.

[Portland Ute]

Why can some people sit through a nine inning MLB game and love every minute of it and others are ready to leave after the first inning. I think this religion thing just comes easier for some much like watching a game. All we can do is just the best we can with what we are blessed with and stop comparing ourselves to others.

This is the part I struggle with.

My MIL treat Church activities, temple attendance, Sunday meetings, etc. the way I do Utah football games. She looks forward to them, is enthralled by them, wants to talk to other people about them, won't shut up about them, etc. It is genuinely a form of entertainment for her.

My dad, from everything I have ever seen, is a pretty intelligent guy. I know I've bruised him when I've openly questioned things the Church has done, like Prop 8, getting involved in alcohol laws in Utah, etc. He is one that always takes the Church's side on everything. From what he says, he has little to no doubt that everything the Church teaches is true.

Then there is me. I don't find Church entertaining like my MIL and I don't have this resolute faith to walk lock-step with everything that the Church says or does without questioning "why?"

Again, this leads me to this forum. I know there are some very good, intelligent folks that are LDS and hold on to ties with the church...whether it be hope, desperation, fear or social reasons. These people aren't like my dad or my MIL...they are a lot more like me.