Faith and Knowledge

[Surfah]

It may be insulting in your case, but I don't back of it a hair. I think that most people in the church believe they are experiencing something unique that doesn't exist elsewhere. I don't think they would acknowledge that what the Catholic feels when she beseeches the Holy Mother to intercede for her is the same thing. Do you?

I know it's anecdotal, but having served a Spanish speaking mission I would have to say that this example does not support your stance here at all.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think our tendency in LDS culture to conflate belief and knowledge is a byproduct of our emphasis on testimonies. A full 1/4 of our sacrament meetings consist of bearing of testimony. We tend to merge upon a common vocabulary.

I agree with OSC in that I fail to see why we are so eager to devalue the concept of belief. What is wrong with saying "I believe Christ lived"? This hits home for me since I have a close friend who was invited to be ordained a high priest. He had an interview with is stake president and his stake president asked him to bear his testimony and when he did so, he repeatedly used the expression "I believe...". His SP asked if he knew the church was true. My friend (who has a bit of a stubborn streak) refused to express himself that way and was therefore not allowed to be ordained. He attends the HP group but is still an elder, 2-3 years later.

[creekster]

It may be insulting in your case, but I don't back of it a hair. I think that most people in the church believe they are experiencing something unique that doesn't exist elsewhere. I don't think they would acknowledge that what the Catholic feels when she beseeches the Holy Mother to intercede for her is the same thing. Do you?

I am not sure they could acknowledge it. I have no idea what anyone else feels and I have no way of knowing whether what I feel, or the basis for my belief, is similar to what someone else feels, or what acts as the basis for their belief. Perhaps when people are young and inexperienced they may look for the magic gestalt that says 'testimony' but I don't think that happens often to people who have lived a little.

To the contrary, my belief is that most testimonies are, over time, built and strengthened on the accumulation of experiences, feelings and ineffable insights and I think that most believing members of the LDS church would concur that this is also true of those faithful adherents of other belief systems. They would believe those other adherents are misguided, but genuine.

[Solon]

I have a close friend who was invited to be ordained a high priest. He had an interview with is stake president and his stake president asked him to bear his testimony and when he did so, he repeatedly used the expression "I believe...". His SP asked if he knew the church was true. My friend (who has a bit of a stubborn streak) refused to express himself that way and was therefore not allowed to be ordained. He attends the HP group but is still an elder, 2-3 years later.

This story makes me sad.

[mUUser]

I think our tendency in LDS culture to conflate belief and knowledge is a byproduct of our emphasis on testimonies. A full 1/4 of our sacrament meetings consist of bearing of testimony. We tend to merge upon a common vocabulary.

I agree with OSC in that I fail to see why we are so eager to devalue the concept of belief. What is wrong with saying "I believe Christ lived"? This hits home for me since I have a close friend who was invited to be ordained a high priest. He had an interview with is stake president and his stake president asked him to bear his testimony and when he did so, he repeatedly used the expression "I believe...". His SP asked if he knew the church was true. My friend (who has a bit of a stubborn streak) refused to express himself that way and was therefore not allowed to be ordained. He attends the HP group but is still an elder, 2-3 years later.

I guess I kinda fall here too.

I know the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches truth.

I believe the Church is the closest organization right now to understanding & teaching that truth, and so proceed with faith in its teachings.

I've never testified that I know the church is true. I wonder if I should disclose this nuance in my TR interviews?

[UtahDan]

I know it's anecdotal, but having served a Spanish speaking mission I would have to say that this example does not support your stance here at all.

Experiences with former Catholics, or with lifetime members who acknowledge that valid spiritual experiences can be had in relation to the Virgin Mary? I'm genuinely curious. Creekster is telling me that people's views are more nuisanced than I perceive and perhaps that is right.

If so, it leads to my other general question for people which is if you don't think the experience you are having is unique and acknowledge that it can be had in relation to beliefs very different from yours, how do you know what it is? I know the stock answers, of course, but I am curious to know how individuals have grappled with that. As I say, my resolution is to say that faith is a choice made in absence of evidence, but perhaps people don't see evidence as being a "draw" the way I do. In that vein, I think it is in some sense being conceded that the experiences themselves are not reliable evidence of what they actually are.

[UtahDan]

To the contrary, my belief is that most testimonies are, over time, built and strengthened on the accumulation of experiences, feelings and ineffable insights and I think that most believing members of the LDS church would concur that this is also true of those faithful adherents of other belief systems. They would believe those other adherents are misguided, but genuine.

Same question I asked Surfah then. What evidence do you have that it is not you who is misguided if you grant that others can have experiences just like yours and draw mutually exclusive conclusions? Maybe you don't grant them that. But I'm curious.

[UtahDan]

I think our tendency in LDS culture to conflate belief and knowledge is a byproduct of our emphasis on testimonies. A full 1/4 of our sacrament meetings consist of bearing of testimony. We tend to merge upon a common vocabulary.

Telestial: Hope of Israel
Terrestrial: I Believe in Christ
Celestial: I Know that My Redeemer Lives

[creekster]

Same question I asked Surfah then. What evidence do you have that it is not you who is misguided if you grant that others can have experiences just like yours and draw mutually exclusive conclusions? Maybe you don't grant them that. But I'm curious.

I don't have time to really flesh out my thoughts here, but in general I do not think this is susceptible to empirical testing. My belief is based on my personal experiences, but I cannot 'prove' it in an empirical sense.

[UtahDan]

I don't have time to really flesh out my thoughts here, but in general I do not think this is susceptible to empirical testing. My belief is based on my personal experiences, but I cannot 'prove' it in an empirical sense.

This makes me suspect that we are saying the same thing.

[creekster]

This makes me suspect that we are saying the same thing.

I have never claimed we aren't. I have only quibbled with your apparent assumption that mopst believers in the LDS church lead unexamined lives or, at least, have unexamined testimonies.

[UtahDan]

I have never claimed we aren't. I have only quibbled with your apparent assumption that mopst believers in the LDS church lead unexamined lives or, at least, have unexamined testimonies.

Mmm, that is not quite what I said. My assertion was that many LDS believe that the spiritual experiences had within the church context are unique to the church and its members. Not that others don't have some experiences (read here light of Christ, etc) but that they are qualitatively different than true spiritual experiences had in the context of the true church.

If they are the same, then an explanation for why a spiritual experience in relation to the Holy Mother should not guide one's life but one in relation to the Book of Mormon should. See what I mean?

[UtahDan]

This is the point at which SU would infer from the silence that he had prevailed. Only I'm trying to learn, not to prevail.

[creekster]

Mmm, that is not quite what I said. My assertion was that many LDS believe that the spiritual experiences had within the church context are unique to the church and its members. Not that others don't have some experiences (read here light of Christ, etc) but that they are qualitatively different than true spiritual experiences had in the context of the true church.

If they are the same, then an explanation for why a spiritual experience in relation to the Holy Mother should not guide one's life but one in relation to the Book of Mormon should. See what I mean?

I am not quite sure what you think we are arguing about. If you are trying to make the point that the veracity of the LDS claims cannot be empirically proven then, yes, you have won. Good job. If you are trying to say that some or all true believers reach a conclusion based on a faulty belief that no one else has such inspirational moments, or that their inspiration is 'qualitatively' different, I am think you are going too far. As I have said, I do not agree that most members dont allow for similar and truthful (albeit incomplete) insights in non-members. As to whether or not they are, in fact, qualitatively different, I guess that all depends on the quality you are talking about.

[creekster]

This is the point at which SU would infer from the silence that he had prevailed. Only I'm trying to learn, not to prevail.

One should choose one's role models carefully