Faith and Knowledge

[Jeff Lebowski]

OSC wrote a column in today's issue of Mormon Times addressing the topic of "I know" vs "I believe" that we have discussed here at length several times.

Some excerpts:

It has become almost a requirement that when we bear our testimonies, we don't say, "I believe," but rather, "I know."
It is as if we had decided, collectively, that faith were not enough.

But too often that comes with some corollaries. "Thus I will not consider information from any other source" is a common one; so is, "Thus I will reject any information that seems to contradict my current understanding of the gospel."

There's nothing wrong with saying we "know" the gospel is true — as long as we recognize that we're talking about our feelings. "Knowledge" is not superior to belief, and when the feeling of certainty makes it impossible for us to learn new truth that revises our old understanding, it can hurt us!

He does a nice job with it. First of two articles on the topic. Check it out.

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/17178/Orson-Scott-Card-Exploring-faith-and-knowledge?s_cid=newsline

[CardiacCoug]

I guess it's a start. Did the 1978 Priesthood revelation really lead to a "number of people leaving the Church"?

Some unrelated hard-hitting journalism at the Mormon Times. The #5 most popular news headline: Mormon Church sends Utah couple on Georgia mission.

[Indy Coug]

Some unrelated hard-hitting journalism at the Mormon Times. The #5 most popular news headline: Mormon Church sends Utah couple on Georgia mission.

Sounds like you have a market void to fill here. Arise, and go forth.


P.S. It deals with Michelle King, long time anchor for Channel 2 in SLC.

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/17121/Mormon-church-sends-Utah-couple-on-Georgia-mission

[YOhio]

Sounds like you have a market void to fill here. Arise, and go forth.


P.S. It deals with Michelle King, long time anchor for Channel 2 in SLC.

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/1...eorgia-mission

It was also just an except from and link to the Gainesville Times.

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/section/8/article/37686/

[Indy Coug]

What does anyone really "know"? The best anyone can do is be highly confident, but there are many times we can be confident enough to effectively "know" something is correct.

If I have 40+ years of working experience with Gospel Principles, intermingled with the times I have eschewed those principles, I have a pretty damn good basis to conclude whether or not I "know" if the Gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in the LDS Church is true.

[Solon]

I don't necessarily disagree with the conclusions you quoted, but as I've stated elsewhere, there is less of a difference between knowing and believing than some might understand there to be.

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?p=388237&highlight=justified#post388237

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?p=252861&highlight=justified#post252861

The bottom line is, if you believe it and it is true, then you know it. And knowing something doesn't necessarily lead to closing your mind to different points of view.

I liked what you wrote earlier about "true belief" and justification. I'm no philosopher, but doesn't one run into trouble with assertions of "truth"?

While the model you put forth might be airtight, can we actually establish whether or not something is "true" - especially something like God or religion?

(not challenging; just asking for more info.)

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't necessarily disagree with the conclusions you quoted, but as I've stated elsewhere, there is less of a difference between knowing and believing than some might understand there to be.

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?p=388237&highlight=justified#post388237

http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?p=252861&highlight=justified#post252861

The bottom line is, if you believe it and it is true, then you know it. And knowing something doesn't necessarily lead to closing your mind to different points of view.

Interesting. Somehow I missed those posts before. Thanks.

[pellegrino]

What does anyone really "know"? The best anyone can do is be highly confident, but there are many times we can be confident enough to effectively "know" something is correct.

If I have 40+ years of working experience with Gospel Principles, intermingled with the times I have eschewed those principles, I have a pretty damn good basis to conclude whether or not I "know" if the Gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in the LDS Church is true.

you're 48? man, I would have never . . .

[Indy Coug]

you're 48? man, I would have never . . .

Yep, until I was 8, rumspringa was in full effect.

[SeattleUte]

Religion is in a death spiral. I heard this morning on NPR that the Pope's historic visit to the UK is a big yawner over there, despite Henry VIII, the Protestant Reformation, child molestations, whatever, because 75% of British are unbelievers. (No, religion is not dead everywhere; in some places it's the new facscism, actually.) Some of you here need to frankly ask yourselves what you're missing that most the educated world is getting.

[Indy Coug]

Religion is in a death spiral.

I agree; it's going to take divine intervention to save it.

[SeattleUte]

I agree; it's going to take divine intervention to save it.

Ah, blond haired blue eyed Jesus in a toga.

[Indy Coug]

Ah, blond haired blue eyed Jesus in a toga.

There's also a discreetly tailored pocket containing a can of whoop-ass.

[Clark Addison]

Ah, blond haired blue eyed Jesus in a toga.

I thought a toga only went over one shoulder? Or has Bluto misled me again?

I once went to the most awesome toga party in the world, because it was at BYU. It looked more like a white burqa party than a toga party.

[creekster]

Religion is in a death spiral. I heard this morning on NPR that the Pope's historic visit to the UK is a big yawner over there, despite Henry VIII, the Protestant Reformation, child molestations, whatever, because 75% of British are unbelievers. (No, religion is not dead everywhere; in some places it's the new facscism, actually.) Some of you here need to frankly ask yourselves what you're missing that most the educated world is getting.

If there is one way we could ever tell if religion is wrong, and not just one religion, or some aspect of religion, but religion as a category, it would be by way of an NPR report on the pope's visit to Great Britian. Btw, outside of a soccer match, how can you tell when the british are excited abotu something?