Immigration & Prop 8 from an Apostle

[BigFatMeanie]

I am glad to meet the final arbiter on what is right and wrong for the Church.

You are busy.

I am sure that you already know this...with your magic 8-ball and all...but I think the Church does more right than wrong.

I just think it isn't fair to pick on the gays and give the illegals a pass. After all...neither of them had a choice right?

In my opinion, the tenor and tone of most of your posts don't indicate you think that. Perhaps you do, but more than one person doesn't perceive that you do. Obviously everyone has some type of axe to grind with the Church, myself included, and I understand that this forum provides an outlet for that grinding; however, you do seem to grind a bit harder and more frequently than the average poster on this board.

You may or may not care how other people perceive you. I'm just pointing out that it's not only possible but also rational for others to perceive from the tone and tenor and frequency of your complaints that you are antipathetic to the church.

[The_Tick]

In my opinion, the tenor and tone of most of your posts don't indicate you think that. Perhaps you do, but more than one person doesn't perceive that you do. Obviously everyone has some type of axe to grind with the Church, myself included, and I understand that this forum provides an outlet for that grinding; however, you do seem to grind a bit harder and more frequently than the average poster on this board.

You may or may not care how other people perceive you. I'm just pointing out that it's not only possible but also rational for others to perceive from the tone and tenor and frequency of your complaints that you are antipathetic to the church.

I don't doubt that.

And it is more than likely because I consider this a safe place to vent.

There are folks on this site that fall into a few catagories:

Hard Liners
Apologists
Believers
Doubters
Non-believers
Anti

This is twice that you have taken umbrage to something that I have said. The first time wasn't as nice or as soft as this one. I appreciate the tone of this one better.

I wouldn't say that I am antipathetic, because I don't "loath" the Church. I believe it does more good overall than harm. I just believe that we gloss over the harm and only focus on the good.

I would place myself in the doubter camp. There are things I believe and things I don't believe. But I choose to believe that there is a place for people like me in the Church. Some folks don't believe that I should belong because I question/doubt. That is cool.

If my Bishop called me tonight and asked me to help him/a ward member out I would drop my plans and do it because I respect him in his calling and it is the Christian thing to do.

But if he called me and asked me to do something that goes against my own personal moral code, then I would tell him no. Which I have done on occasion.

[Non Sequitur]

I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with Indy. The Church is a global church and not the enforcement arm of the U.S. government. If its real aim is to save souls, then it shouldn't care whether a citizen is documented or not. If the Church feels like being undocumented is morally wrong, then I could understand them requiring someone to be documented before allowing them to serve missions. But you can't simply say that because someone is undocumented, they are acting immorally. I'm glad the Church has chosen not to get involved politically in this issue and would be a lot more disappointed if they had taken a stand based on the current political climate.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with Indy. The Church is a global church and not the enforcement arm of the U.S. government. If its real aim is to save souls, then it shouldn't care whether a citizen is documented or not. If the Church feels like being undocumented is a morally wrong, then I could understand them requiring someone to be documented before allowing them to serve missions. But you can't simply say that because someone is undocumented, they are acting immorally. I'm glad the Church has chosen not to get involved politically in this issue and would be a lot more disappointed if they took a stand based on the political climate.

Ditto.

[Commando]

Even if you are the biggest stickler for the whole "law of the land" deal, many many many illegals qualify to be here through relief mandated by congress. So. Unless you are an effing omniscient immigration mastermind, which none of us are, you don't know who is "immoral" and who isn't even by the most stringent standard. The Church's position on this is very wise, the way I see it.

[falafel]

Ditto.

Tritto!

[LA Ute]

Tritto!

Quarto.

[creekster]

are all you ditto heads agreeing with the conent or wiht the odd position of agreeing with Indy?

[LA Ute]

are all you ditto heads agreeing with the conent or wiht the odd position of agreeing with Indy?

That question is too complex for me to answer.

[wuapinmon]

So the child has to atone for the sin of their parents?

Judas priest!

Ok, envision a situation wherein your parents told you it was okay to drink beer. On your 21st birthday, you invite your YSA group out to celebrate, and they tell you that it's against the Word of Wisdom.

You can:

1. GO drink anyway
2. Not drink

If you choose number 1, that's on you. If you know you're here illegally, as an adult, the onus is on you to get your immigration status in order. Your parents can't help you unless they are citizens.

The Church doesn't have to send them home. But, it can say, if you want to be an ordained minister, you have to be in compliance with the law of the land.

Believe me, I want immigration reform. But, until then, I think it's absolutely ridiculous how the Church picks and chooses which laws it wants to respect regarding immigration.

[All-American]

Judas priest!

Ok, envision a situation wherein your parents told you it was okay to drink beer. On your 21st birthday, you invite your YSA group out to celebrate, and they tell you that it's against the Word of Wisdom.

You can:

1. GO drink anyway
2. Not drink

If you choose number 1, that's on you. If you know you're here illegally, as an adult, the onus is on you to get your immigration status in order. Your parents can't help you unless they are citizens.

The Church doesn't have to send them home. But, it can say, if you want to be an ordained minister, you have to be in compliance with the law of the land.

Believe me, I want immigration reform. But, until then, I think it's absolutely ridiculous how the Church picks and chooses which laws it wants to respect regarding immigration.

Would you oppose doctors providing emergency treatment to an illegal immigrant?

[The_Tick]

Would you oppose doctors providing emergency treatment to an illegal immigrant?

I wouldn't. Because that is life threatening stuff.

[wuapinmon]

Would you oppose doctors providing emergency treatment to an illegal immigrant?

Absolutely not. This isn't about the law. I think that the issue at hand is whether or not someone who is an undocumented alien can represent the Church ethically while not obeying the law of the land, knowingly.

[Non Sequitur]

Absolutely not. This isn't about the law. I think that the issue at hand is whether or not someone who is an undocumented alien can represent the Church ethically while not obeying the law of the land, knowingly.

When I was a missionary in Ecuador, one of our biggest challenges was getting people married to their partners before we baptized them. In Ecuador it's nearly impossible to get married unless you have a cedula -- a national ID card. To expedite marriages we frequently paid off a certain lawyer with connections who could get people married without all the requisite paper work. We clearly circumvented the law, but if we had not done so many people would not have been baptized. Obeying the law of the land is generally a good idea, but sometimes it's a secondary concern.

[wally]

When I was a missionary in Ecuador, one of our biggest challenges was getting people married to their partners before we baptized them. In Ecuador it's nearly impossible to get married unless you have a cedula -- a national ID card. To expedite marriages we frequently paid off a certain lawyer with connections who could get people married without all the requisite paper work. We clearly circumvented the law, but if we had not done so many people would not have been baptized. Obeying the law of the land is generally a good idea, but sometimes it's a secondary concern.

This is true. Bribery is cultural in many third world contries. They consider it an unofficial, mandatory commission.