Has illegal immigration been talked.....

[byu71]

if the church wants us to obey the laws of the land, why do they send out illegals on missions?

They want us to obey the "appropriate" laws of the land or those we deem right. I wish they had the same policy at BYU as far as the honor code goes.

[falafel]

You have me at a disadvantage. I don't know MBN's situation. Is he an immigrant in Japan? He is not there temporarily, but plans on living there permanently?

I don't know Japan's immigration policy either. Do they have open borders? In other words, could I move there without any paperwork and start functioning in their society?

I was just asking a question about historical assimilation in other Countries. I wouldn't have picked Japan as being a very open assimilating society, but then again I don't know much about Japan.

I'm just yanking your chain, but I suspect you knew that. I'm sure MBN does not plan on living there permanently. My comments were meant to show what it might be like for these people. My wife moved to Japan when she was three and her family lived there for the next 15 years. She returned to go to BYU. They never intended to live there that long but that's just how it ended up happening. I'm positive the family would have been worse off it weren't for the English wards over there. Only her father spoke Japanese (later her brother learned on his mission).

Consider, my good friend 71, what it might be like for you to move to, say, Buenos Aires, even for 1 year. Do you speak any Spanish? Would it make a dent in your church attendance if you were forced to attend Spanish-only meetings? Would it help much if you were provided a translator, but that translator was a 19 year old kid who'd only been speaking English for 6 months?

I used to do Spanish translation in my first ward on my mission. We had a small Spanish group there and the missionaries would translate in the back. It was sad and embarrassing to see some of the members take off their headsets half way through (presumably) because my translation was so poor that they weren't getting anything out of it.

[byu71]

I'm just yanking your chain, but I suspect you knew that. I'm sure MBN does not plan on living there permanently. My comments were meant to show what it might be like for these people. My wife moved to Japan when she was three and her family lived there for the next 15 years. She returned to go to BYU. They never intended to live there that long but that's just how it ended up happening. I'm positive the family would have been worse off it weren't for the English wards over there. Only her father spoke Japanese (later her brother learned on his mission).

Consider, my good friend 71, what it might be like for you to move to, say, Buenos Aires, even for 1 year. Do you speak any Spanish? Would it make a dent in your church attendance if you were forced to attend Spanish-only meetings? Would it help much if you were provided a translator, but that translator was a 19 year old kid who'd only been speaking English for 6 months?

I used to do Spanish translation in my first ward on my mission. We had a small Spanish group there and the missionaries would translate in the back. It was sad and embarrassing to see some of the members take off their headsets half way through (presumably) because my translation was so poor that they weren't getting anything out of it.

My chain gets yanked all the time. What upsets me about that is it is the only thing I own that gets yanked regularly.

I do understand the concept of being in a foreign land and not really planning on becoming part of that culture. Business people do it all the time. Military people do it. Teachers and even athletes have such circumstances. I understand the desire to have as much contact with their culture back home as possible.

My question and it is in the questionning phase, is should people who plan on permanently staying in their new land try to assimilate or should they hold onto the culture (might be a bad word, maybe I mean allegience) from whence they came. I honestly don't know and thus the question of what countries have several cultures, by that I mean major different language groups, and how does that work out?

Edit: I duly note I broadened the scope of the thread intent. I went from church to nation. I realize the two are not comparable.

[Indy Coug]

I used to do Spanish translation in my first ward on my mission. We had a small Spanish group there and the missionaries would translate in the back. It was sad and embarrassing to see some of the members take off their headsets half way through (presumably) because my translation was so poor that they weren't getting anything out of it.

I gave up listening to translation after the first week and used my meager existing knowledge of Spanish to get by over the next four years. The upside is that I definitely got better at understanding (church) Spanish that way.

[falafel]

My chain gets yanked all the time. What upsets me about that is it is the only thing I own that gets yanked regularly.

I do understand the concept of being in a foreign land and not really planning on becoming part of that culture. Business people do it all the time. Military people do it. Teachers and even athletes have such circumstances. I understand the desire to have as much contact with their culture back home as possible.

My question and it is in the questionning phase, is should people who plan on permanently staying in their new land try to assimilate or should they hold onto the culture (might be a bad word, maybe I mean allegience) from whence they came. I honestly don't know and thus the question of what countries have several cultures, by that I mean major different language groups, and how does that work out?

I think the U.S. is a country with many cultures. To say that immigrants should be expected to assimilate into the american "culture" is really misleading. There is no one "culture" here. West coast culture is different than northeast culture, which is different than souther culture, which is different than Texas culture, which is different than northwest culture, which is different than Hawaiian culture, etc., etc. (Oklahoman culture is exactly the same as Texas culture, however). And of course, there are many many sub-cultures operating within the regional cultures. With all these varied cultures, how can new immigrants be expected to drop their own? Are we really going to say "we have 3000 of our own cultures, so we don't need yours"?

[falafel]

I gave up listening to translation after the first week and used my meager existing knowledge of Spanish to get by over the next four years. The upside is that I definitely got better at understanding (church) Spanish that way.

In the spanish branch? Why were you in there?

[Indy Coug]

In the spanish branch? Why were you in there?

Because it wasn't a "Spanish branch" at the time, it was a branch based on geographic boundaries, so there were English and Spanish members there -- plus some "imports" to help bolster the leadership.

It was formally changed this year to be Spanish-only.

[falafel]

Because it wasn't a "Spanish branch" at the time, it was a branch based on geographic boundaries, so there were English and Spanish members there -- plus some "imports" to help bolster the leadership.

It was formally changed this year to be Spanish-only.

So it was just a branch in PA, but it was conducted primarily in Spanish? That's interesting.

[Moliere]

We have a deaf branch in our area. I've never been and probably never will, but it is interesting to see how it works. Probably the best part about it is that it brings together many members who are in the same situation (deaf) and they can relate much better than if they were in a typical family ward. I can see how this would help Spanish speaking members. As for Polys, most of the ones I've met speak English so I don't quite get why there are still Poly wards.

[byu71]

I think the U.S. is a country with many cultures. To say that immigrants should be expected to assimilate into the american "culture" is really misleading. There is no one "culture" here. West coast culture is different than northeast culture, which is different than souther culture, which is different than Texas culture, which is different than northwest culture, which is different than Hawaiian culture, etc., etc. (Oklahoman culture is exactly the same as Texas culture, however). And of course, there are many many sub-cultures operating within the regional cultures. With all these varied cultures, how can new immigrants be expected to drop their own? Are we really going to say "we have 3000 of our own cultures, so we don't need yours"?

Like I said, culture may be the wrong word. How about if we have people who think they are Europeans first, people who think they are Mexicans first, people who think they are Africans first, people who think they are Americans first. Can this lead to problems. I don't see this as a problem now, could it become one?

If I move to France and decide to become a French citizen. Where does my first loyalty lie, France, the US or the mormon church.

[Indy Coug]

So it was just a branch in PA, but it was conducted primarily in Spanish? That's interesting.

There wasn't a set schedule (other than fast & testimony which was always in Spanish) on which week sacrament would be conducted in Spanish and which was in English -- it was a function of who was assigned to speak that week.

[byu71]

We have a deaf branch in our area. I've never been and probably never will, but it is interesting to see how it works. Probably the best part about it is that it brings together many members who are in the same situation (deaf) and they can relate much better than if they were in a typical family ward. I can see how this would help Spanish speaking members. As for Polys, most of the ones I've met speak English so I don't quite get why there are still Poly wards.

I wish they would start a branch for those who just want to attend sacrament meeting and that's it. That could bring together many members in the same situation would be my guess.

[Indy Coug]

I wish they would start a branch for those who just want to attend sacrament meeting and that's it. That could bring together many members in the same situation would be my guess.

My grandfather was a branch president of a nursing home branch in Idaho. They only had sacrament meeting. There's your solution.

IIRC, it wasn't even a full 70 minutes. I think it had a 15 minute talk after the sacrament was administered and that was it.

[byu71]

My grandfather was a branch president of a nursing home branch in Idaho. They only had sacrament meeting. There's your solution.

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!

[beefytee]

Like I said, culture may be the wrong word. How about if we have people who think they are Europeans first, people who think they are Mexicans first, people who think they are Africans first, people who think they are Americans first. Can this lead to problems. I don't see this as a problem now, could it become one?

If I move to France and decide to become a French citizen. Where does my first loyalty lie, France, the US or the mormon church.

I don't see loyalty being a big issue either.

You guys probably think I am a loyal Canadian, but I doubt you think it is causing problems with me living here in the states.

I think the issue is can they adequately interact in society and ultimately can they contribute to maintaining and raising the value of that society.

Obviously language is a big issue in this. If everyone is speaking different languages, there isn't going to be much societal interaction.