I learned in church today

[Pheidippides]

Our HP lesson was on repentance and about all we decided on was that coming down hard on a person never seems to work, it must be done with love and kindness. It sounds like it would have been good for your SP to be in our class today.

My wife and I both think our SP is a nice guy, but we never interact with him as a guy. Only as a leader. And he's a horrible leader. He's a quintessential bureaucrat who thinks in terms of numbers. I dislike him immensely, the moreso after this. If I were to interact with him as a regular person, I'd have nothing bad to say.

I don't get the dynamic that is at play here.

What is the sake president trying to accomplish? Is anyone pushing him from above?

What if people are paying a full tithe but have very little income right now? Same goes for fast offerings.

Unless they have some way of knowing what every members incomes are, then what reason do they have to rain hell from on high on your ward membership over how much they pay?

Seems to me they have nothing concrete on which to base their fury.

They have tithing settlement declarations, which is where they are getting it. Funny thing about that - there are multiple people in the ward who are most certainly "cheating" on their tithing, or at least were when I was clerk. But nobody cares.

My wife referred to the entire sacrament meeting (there were three talks, one from each of the bishopric members, with the SP observing on the stand) nothing more than spiritual bullying. I think she's being kind.

what's the metric? I'm curious.

They didn't go into detail, but apparently there's some sort percentage of full tithe payers per household of record type of deal. They said that we'd not met the quota (whatever it was) twice in the past five years, the first time being the first year we existed as a ward. I call bullshit on that, because I was the clerk during that first year and knew nothing about it at all. And I did more of tithing settlement than your usual clerk, seeing as we were trying to figure out how to do things.

Jacob/Surfah, I get that you don't understand and I don't expect you to. I already said this was about the delivery and not the message itself. And maybe you had to be there. But you ought to try seeing this from the point of view of a person who doesn't really believe in divine inspiration of leadership to any great extent and is just trying to do the best he can while following his own counsel. Talks like this leave me saying (pardon the french) fuck that, I don't need this sort of bullying, I'll find somewhere else to go where they won't try to guilt trip/manipulate me based on what they say (note that fast offerings was a part of this). But it's never that simple, and the emotion isn't anything a bit of time won't quell, because the proper response is of course nothing. It does have me worried about what sorts of things will actually happen when my daughter, now just shy of 11, is in YW though. Especially because of an aside on Sabbath day observance and bishop's youth meetings that was part of the talk, but that's a subject for a different time.

[Green Monstah]

Maybe he's trying to do his calling.








This seems like a silly thing to get in a huff over. Tithing is a commandment (if you believe in such a thing), one that members have covenanted to obey at that. I tend to agree with Jacob here. Sure the approach by a lay clergyman may have been off-putting and lacking tact, but that doesn't change the law of tithing and our obligation to keep it.

We're not obliged to keep it. Quite frankly, many local clergy botch tithing issues. Some use the fire and brimstone approach; others use the wretched "god doesnt need your money, but you have deficient faith if you don't pay it" approach. The fact is, all active Mormons I know would love to pay a full tithe, but not all are in a position to do so. Coming down hard on these folks is more than just tacky--it's couterproductive.

[Tone Loc]

My wife and I both think our SP is a nice guy, but we never interact with him as a guy. Only as a leader. And he's a horrible leader. He's a quintessential bureaucrat who thinks in terms of numbers. I dislike him immensely, the moreso after this. If I were to interact with him as a regular person, I'd have nothing bad to say.



They have tithing settlement declarations, which is where they are getting it. Funny thing about that - there are multiple people in the ward who are most certainly "cheating" on their tithing, or at least were when I was clerk. But nobody cares.

My wife referred to the entire sacrament meeting (there were three talks, one from each of the bishopric members, with the SP observing on the stand) nothing more than spiritual bullying. I think she's being kind.



They didn't go into detail, but apparently there's some sort percentage of full tithe payers per household of record type of deal. They said that we'd not met the quota (whatever it was) twice in the past five years, the first time being the first year we existed as a ward. I call bullshit on that, because I was the clerk during that first year and knew nothing about it at all. And I did more of tithing settlement than your usual clerk, seeing as we were trying to figure out how to do things.

Jacob/Surfah, I get that you don't understand and I don't expect you to. I already said this was about the delivery and not the message itself. And maybe you had to be there. But you ought to try seeing this from the point of view of a person who doesn't really believe in divine inspiration of leadership to any great extent and is just trying to do the best he can while following his own counsel. Talks like this leave me saying (pardon the french) fuck that, I don't need this sort of bullying, I'll find somewhere else to go where they won't try to guilt trip/manipulate me based on what they say (note that fast offerings was a part of this). But it's never that simple, and the emotion isn't anything a bit of time won't quell, because the proper response is of course nothing. It does have me worried about what sorts of things will actually happen when my daughter, now just shy of 11, is in YW though. Especially because of an aside on Sabbath day observance and bishop's youth meetings that was part of the talk, but that's a subject for a different time.

If you are such a badass walk away. There are plenty of folks here that can show you how. Or, just stop being such a puss and getting offended so easily.

CUF is full of pussies that love to complain. Cowboy up bitches.

[Pheidippides]

If you are such a badass walk away. There are plenty of folks here that can show you how. Or, just stop being such a puss and getting offended so easily.

CUF is full of pussies that love to complain. Cowboy up bitches.

I thank you for your clearly insightful and well-reasoned opinion, even though I have no clue who you are. I will consider your reasoned words. Or not.

[Green Monstah]

If you are such a badass walk away. There are plenty of folks here that can show you how. Or, just stop being such a puss and getting offended so easily.

CUF is full of pussies that love to complain. Cowboy up bitches.

Many people value the church, but are confused when peoe who purport to be inspired act like dipshits.

I can't speak for Nikuman, but I value the church quite highly, but do take issue with much of the douchebaggery that is associated with it.

I think stepping in line and refusing to question authority is being more of a "puss" than Nikuman's approach, but we may have diffferent definitions for courage.

[mUUser]

...What if people are paying a full tithe but have very little income right now? Same goes for fast offerings.

Unless they have some way of knowing what every members incomes are, then what reason do they have to rain hell from on high on your ward membership over how much they pay?...

Several years ago we had a bishop that needed additional FO funds from the members, so he quietly handed about 30 of us a "Private" envelope with a letter asking us to consider increasing our FO. In fact, it even suggested an amount.....about $300/month.

I'm sure some were upset, but I was grateful. Someone in the church finally had the balls to "teach" me that FO at our income level was more than $50 month. I'm not an expert in most church things as our family didn't attend chruch growing up, so I basically thought a proper fast offering was one days food. I don't adhere to that anymore.

I genuinely appreciated that letter.

...But you ought to try seeing this from the point of view of a person who doesn't really believe in divine inspiration of leadership to any great extent and is just trying to do the best he can while following his own counsel. Talks like this leave me saying (pardon the french) fuck that, I don't need this sort of bullying, I'll find somewhere else to go where they won't try to guilt trip/manipulate me based on what they say (note that fast offerings was a part of this)....

I've found the more years I'm in the church that the less I care about what others say. Holds true for life in general. It'd be hard to offend me. My wife can handle herself, so it'd be difficult to get me worked up by offending her too. Now if you're a prick to my kids, then honestly, it'd make me consider my membership. Fortunately, I've not been tested in that way.

[pellegrino]

If you are such a badass walk away. There are plenty of folks here that can show you how. Or, just stop being such a puss and getting offended so easily.

CUF is full of pussies that love to complain. Cowboy up bitches.

careful, the pussy might rub off on ya.

[Pheidippides]

I've found the more years I'm in the church that the less I care about what others say. Holds true for life in general. It'd be hard to offend me. My wife can handle herself, so it'd be difficult to get me worked up by offending her too. Now if you're a prick to my kids, then honestly, it'd make me consider my membership. Fortunately, I've not been tested in that way.

I agree with this completely - I should be clear that the reactions I described were those of the moment and not of this moment. Your last two sentences are key - you mess with my kids and I'll do more than vent on the interwebs.

The entire point of bringing this up - and maybe I haven't made the point well - is that I found it very odd to witness. It was like a high-pressure Amway sale or something, only with various appeals to God mixed in. I felt like I was part of the tithing downline.

[CardiacCoug]

If you are such a badass walk away. There are plenty of folks here that can show you how. Or, just stop being such a puss and getting offended so easily.

CUF is full of pussies that love to complain. Cowboy up bitches.

Sounds like you attend church but I think you need to pay better attention to what this whole Christianity thing is all about.

[Uncle Ted]

The entire point of bringing this up - and maybe I haven't made the point well - is that I found it very odd to witness. It was like a high-pressure Amway sale or something, only with various appeals to God mixed in. I felt like I was part of the tithing downline.

Maybe the low full tithe payer percentage has more to do with the economy. Unemployment is high and people are hurting. Wage inflation is low. I think I read in The Economist it was only about 2% from last year in the US. On the other hand, food and gas prices are raising quickly. If I was a bishop I would just tell folks in tough financial situations to pay 10% on the money they have left over after paying for some of their basic needs like food and count them as a full tithe payer. It is really between the Lord and the tithing payer and I am guessing the Lord will understand the true intentions of people's hearts.

[Solon]

Maybe the low full tithe payer percentage has more to do with the economy. Unemployment is high and people are hurting. Wage inflation is low. I think I read in The Economist it was only about 2% from last year in the US. On the other hand, food and gas prices are raising quickly. If I was a bishop I would just tell folks in tough financial situations to pay 10% on the money they have left over after paying for some of their basic needs like food and count them as a full tithe payer. It is really between the Lord and the tithing payer and I am guessing the Lord will understand the true intentions of people's hearts.

This is an interesting idea, Ted.

I think niku & wife have the right to feel put off if that's how they took the message. Nobody likes to feel like they're being shaken down for money, especially by religious organizations.

[SoCalCoug]

Maybe the low full tithe payer percentage has more to do with the economy. Unemployment is high and people are hurting. Wage inflation is low. I think I read in The Economist it was only about 2% from last year in the US. On the other hand, food and gas prices are raising quickly. If I was a bishop I would just tell folks in tough financial situations to pay 10% on the money they have left over after paying for some of their basic needs like food and count them as a full tithe payer. It is really between the Lord and the tithing payer and I am guessing the Lord will understand the true intentions of people's hearts.

Yeah, well that's when the talks come about how someone had to choose between paying their tithing or buying food, and they paid their tithing, and a bag of groceries mysteriously appeared on their doorstep, or a check for the exact amount of money they needed for groceries showed up, or something like that. In other words, if you have enough faith and pay your tithing, no matter how much you'll have left over, you'll be provided for miraculously.

[Portland Ute]

Several years ago we had a bishop that needed additional FO funds from the members, so he quietly handed about 30 of us a "Private" envelope with a letter asking us to consider increasing our FO. In fact, it even suggested an amount.....about $300/month.

I'm sure some were upset, but I was grateful. Someone in the church finally had the balls to "teach" me that FO at our income level was more than $50 month. I'm not an expert in most church things as our family didn't attend chruch growing up, so I basically thought a proper fast offering was one days food. I don't adhere to that anymore.

I genuinely appreciated that letter.

I appreciate your faithfulness and positive reaction.

It goes to show how so many of us are from and in different places.

I would have wadded the thing up and thrown it in the trash can. I think the letter was a very tacky thing.

There is no FO/income ratio. It is in very poor taste, IMO, to target specific families and ask for a specific amount of money for a DONATION.

It's different to ask that the ward members do some introspection and see if there is any way they could increase their FO donations.

That, IMO, is entirely different than a bishop getting banged on by upper management because their ward doesn't fill some quota for FO donations and then having him hand out request letters for a specific amount.

I agree with what you said about it taking balls to do such a thing, though.

[Viking]

If you are such a badass walk away. There are plenty of folks here that can show you how. Or, just stop being such a puss and getting offended so easily.

CUF is full of pussies that love to complain. Cowboy up bitches.

I agree with Tone Loc. You smarty pants need to quit whining and fork over your money to Jesus.

[TripletDaddy]

CUF is full of pussies that love to complain. Cowboy

This simply isn't true!