I learned in church today

[wuapinmon]

Today one of the counselors used Plato's Allegory of the Cave as an example of why we should do missionary work. The LDS are the prisoner that was released and saw things as they really are and now must try to share that "light and knowledge" (his words, not mine) with the rest of the world who remain prisoners in the cave.

Ya know, if you really believe that it's God's Church, then that's not a bad way of explaining it to the faithful. However, he should realize that the cave dwellers are going to try to kill him.

In fact, maybe you can use the Cave Allegory to explain why ex-Mormons often don't find fulfillment in other religions; they're "bad at the game" with spiritual troglodytish Glauconma. Forgive me, I love a good (or bad) pun.

[NorthwestUteFan]

ask him about Lydia, Phoebe, Prisca and other female leaders in the early church. Odds are he won't have a clue who it is you're talking about

A quick google search turned up this interesting discussion: http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/women.htm

Perhaps SU has more insight here, but I have read that Paul obviously did not write all of the works attributed to him (yes I will admit this was news to me). His own personal writing spoke more highly of women, while those written later (the Deutero-Pauline writings*) are somewhat more misogynistic...or at least attempt to keep women out of the leadership/prophetic roles.

Common sense dictates that women are by nature more spiritually 'in-tune' than men. Why shouldn't they have a prophetic role too? (I know, 'Paging Rosebud').

*Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and perhaps Hebrews are not believed to have been written by Paul

Today one of the counselors used Plato's Allegory of the Cave as an example of why we should do missionary work. The LDS are the prisoner that was released and saw things as they really are and now must try to share that "light and knowledge" (his words, not mine) with the rest of the world who remain prisoners in the cave.

I appreciate that allegory; in many ways it is one of the finest pieces of philosophy in history. However it may be a stretch to claim that a 19 year-old kid who has been spoon fed correlated, Bruce R. McConkie, post-1971 doctrine all his life will honestly carry the light and knowledge to the rest of the 'chained heathens' remaining within the cave.

If he was speaking solely of the missionaries bringing people the Plan of Salvation, or of the basic good news of the Gospel, then perhaps I can support his claim. (I happen to believe everybody has a significant portion of 'the light', that few people are fully 'in the dark'...).

At any rate it makes me happy to see somebody put extra effort into the lesson and stray from the manual.

[NorthwestUteFan]

In fact, maybe you can use the Cave Allegory to explain why ex-Mormons often don't find fulfillment in other religions; they're "bad at the game" with spiritual troglodytish Glauconma.

And this is a perfect complement to the argument. Many people I know who left the church are happy where they are, but often still feel a sense of 'longing' or lack of fulfillment at other churches. Perhaps it is the reason many go all the way to agnostic when the other churches can't completely fill the void (or at least the void as they understand/feel it).

Warts and all, the Mormon explanation of the gospel and Plan of Salvation is still the one that resonates most with me.

[Moliere]

From my bishop (paraphrased):

"Have women ever had the priesthood?
No.
Do women have the priesthood now?
No.
Will they ever have the priesthood?
No.
The Lord is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow."

:igiveup:

Interesting, especially given that we learned that commandments not only can change, but have changed. Then we shared multiple examples of this in the past 180 years.

[Portland Ute]

ask him about Lydia, Phoebe, Prisca and other female leaders in the early church. Odds are he won't have a clue who it is you're talking about

Also, ask him how they officiate in washing and anointing in the temple.

[Portland Ute]

From my bishop (paraphrased):


The Lord is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow."

:igiveup:

Also, WTF then is it that we can't drink beer or wine but anyone prior to 18 whatever was free to imbibe? Why does the WOW say that it's a suggestion but not a commandment yet it's now enforced as a commandment?

Yeah... "the Lord" never changes.

But there's always been that blacks and the priesthood thing. That was always perfectly consistent.

[pellegrino]

A quick google search turned up this interesting discussion: http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/women.htm

Perhaps SU has more insight here, but I have read that Paul obviously did not write all of the works attributed to him (yes I will admit this was news to me). His own personal writing spoke more highly of women, while those written later (the Deutero-Pauline writings*) are somewhat more misogynistic...or at least attempt to keep women out of the leadership/prophetic roles.

Common sense dictates that women are by nature more spiritually 'in-tune' than men. Why shouldn't they have a prophetic role too? (I know, 'Paging Rosebud').

*Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and perhaps Hebrews are not believed to have been written by Paul




I appreciate that allegory; in many ways it is one of the finest pieces of philosophy in history. However it may be a stretch to claim that a 19 year-old kid who has been spoon fed correlated, Bruce R. McConkie, post-1971 doctrine all his life will honestly carry the light and knowledge to the rest of the 'chained heathens' remaining within the cave.

If he was speaking solely of the missionaries bringing people the Plan of Salvation, or of the basic good news of the Gospel, then perhaps I can support his claim. (I happen to believe everybody has a significant portion of 'the light', that few people are fully 'in the dark'...).

At any rate it makes me happy to see somebody put extra effort into the lesson and stray from the manual.

correlation is the problem here. It's what makes his parallel so ironic.

[Moliere]

A quick google search turned up this interesting discussion: http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/women.htm

Perhaps SU has more insight here, but I have read that Paul obviously did not write all of the works attributed to him (yes I will admit this was news to me). His own personal writing spoke more highly of women, while those written later (the Deutero-Pauline writings*) are somewhat more misogynistic...or at least attempt to keep women out of the leadership/prophetic roles.

Common sense dictates that women are by nature more spiritually 'in-tune' than men. Why shouldn't they have a prophetic role too? (I know, 'Paging Rosebud').

*Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and perhaps Hebrews are not believed to have been written by Paul

This is an interesting subject: http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=40744

[Clark Addison]

I like going to church for a lot of reasons. I like to sit next to my wife in Sacrament Meeting (though my 7 year old often wedges herself between us). I like my HP group where we often have interesting conversations. I like seeing and visiting with people who I only see on Sundays. But I will be honest, I often doon't get a lot out of Sacrament Meeting talks. I'm sure it is my own fault, but I often find excuses to occupy my brain on other things during that time.

Yesterday was an exception, though. We moved into this area 9 years ago. The whole time we have been here, there has been another family in our ward (except for a short break). The mother is a life-long member. The husband was not. They are a great family. They are in their late 30s. The wife was inactive for a while after they got married, then, 12 years ago, they had a stillborn child (their first), and she started coming out to church again. They have since had another daughter who is now 8, and have adopted three children, ages 5, 3, and 3. The whole time we have known them, the father has come out to church with his family, usually leaving after Sacrament Meeting. He is a great guy. Friendly, giving, and very personable. He is in the energy industry, and pretty successful, but also very much a family guy. For years now, his wife has paid tithing on his income, and he, though not a member, has gone along with it. He held a calling on the Activities committee several years ago, and was great at it. I was Ward Mission Leader for a couple of years from about 2005 to 2007. I managed to get him out to my Gospel Principles class most of the time, and we had some great discussions. He loved having the missionaries over, as long as they didn't get too pushy.

About two years ago, he took an assignment in Houston (maybe some of our Houston members know them), and they moved out. We didn't have much contact with them, except when they came back and visited a couple of times, and for a bit because we were thinking of buying their house. About three months ago, they moved back. His first testimony meeting back, he stood up and let everyone know he had been baptized. He had only told a couple of people, so it was quite a surprise to everyone.

Yesterday, he gave a talk about his 14 year journey to the church. He talked about each member of his family, from his wife to his youngest kids, and talked about how they helped him out. Each time he started talking about one of them, he started crying. He talked about his job in Houston, how it had taken so much time from his family, and how some great members of the ward there helped him remember that his family was what was most important. It was really a great talk. I don't know if I learned anything, but it was a great reminder of why I come to church, even though it drives me crazy sometimes, and the kind of people that I find there every week.

[TripletDaddy]

That is a really cool story, Clark Addison. Glad to read it.

[jay santos]

A quick google search turned up this interesting discussion: http://www.gospelassemblyfree.com/facts/women.htm

Perhaps SU has more insight here, but I have read that Paul obviously did not write all of the works attributed to him (yes I will admit this was news to me). His own personal writing spoke more highly of women, while those written later (the Deutero-Pauline writings*) are somewhat more misogynistic...or at least attempt to keep women out of the leadership/prophetic roles.

Common sense dictates that women are by nature more spiritually 'in-tune' than men. Why shouldn't they have a prophetic role too? (I know, 'Paging Rosebud').

*Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and perhaps Hebrews are not believed to have been written by Paul




I appreciate that allegory; in many ways it is one of the finest pieces of philosophy in history. However it may be a stretch to claim that a 19 year-old kid who has been spoon fed correlated, Bruce R. McConkie, post-1971 doctrine all his life will honestly carry the light and knowledge to the rest of the 'chained heathens' remaining within the cave.

If he was speaking solely of the missionaries bringing people the Plan of Salvation, or of the basic good news of the Gospel, then perhaps I can support his claim. (I happen to believe everybody has a significant portion of 'the light', that few people are fully 'in the dark'...).

At any rate it makes me happy to see somebody put extra effort into the lesson and stray from the manual.

1. Why would SU have more insight on this?
2. Disagree that it's common sense that women are more spiritually in tune. Not that that has anything to do with why they should or shouldn't be allowed to be more active in church leadership.
3. On correlation: I disagree with the masses quite often on this subject. Why would a missionary not be qualified to be in that role, having only been spoon fed correlated material? Further, what non-correlated material would it be required for the missionary to understand to teach the gospel. My kids are growing up in a correlated world, and i have to spend a lot of time undoing the crap they hear at church and seminary related to uncorrelated material.

[NorthwestUteFan]

1. SU is very well read on the history of the early Christian church, and even wrote a novel (historical fiction) on the subject. I prefaced the statement with "perhaps ". Solon and All-American would also have a great deal of insight. Recently SU made a side comment about two of the Gospels having been copied from the same source, so he was the first who came to mind.

2. In my experience, women are on the whole far more spiritual by nature than men.

3. I fear our missionaries are spreading the story that Daniel was cast into the lions den because he wanted to keep the word of wisdom and avoid alcohol and coffee, rather than for refusing to eat non-kosher foods. Correlated=the church is the Only True and Living Church on the face of the earth; it is the same today as in Jesus' day as in Adam's day, despite being very easily disproven in our own very recent history. And this static argument is in opposition to the reason we claim to have a living prophet.

Perhaps it is the hubris of the parallel that worries me most, because we are throwing our kids to the wolves, perhaps unprepared. Anything beyond that is a subject for a different thread.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Clark Addison, thank you for sharing that beautiful story.

[Pheidippides]

I like going to church for a lot of reasons. I like to sit next to my wife in Sacrament Meeting (though my 7 year old often wedges herself between us). I like my HP group where we often have interesting conversations. I like seeing and visiting with people who I only see on Sundays. But I will be honest, I often doon't get a lot out of Sacrament Meeting talks. I'm sure it is my own fault, but I often find excuses to occupy my brain on other things during that time.

Yesterday was an exception, though. We moved into this area 9 years ago. The whole time we have been here, there has been another family in our ward (except for a short break). The mother is a life-long member. The husband was not. They are a great family. They are in their late 30s. The wife was inactive for a while after they got married, then, 12 years ago, they had a stillborn child (their first), and she started coming out to church again. They have since had another daughter who is now 8, and have adopted three children, ages 5, 3, and 3. The whole time we have known them, the father has come out to church with his family, usually leaving after Sacrament Meeting. He is a great guy. Friendly, giving, and very personable. He is in the energy industry, and pretty successful, but also very much a family guy. For years now, his wife has paid tithing on his income, and he, though not a member, has gone along with it. He held a calling on the Activities committee several years ago, and was great at it. I was Ward Mission Leader for a couple of years from about 2005 to 2007. I managed to get him out to my Gospel Principles class most of the time, and we had some great discussions. He loved having the missionaries over, as long as they didn't get too pushy.

About two years ago, he took an assignment in Houston (maybe some of our Houston members know them), and they moved out. We didn't have much contact with them, except when they came back and visited a couple of times, and for a bit because we were thinking of buying their house. About three months ago, they moved back. His first testimony meeting back, he stood up and let everyone know he had been baptized. He had only told a couple of people, so it was quite a surprise to everyone.

Yesterday, he gave a talk about his 14 year journey to the church. He talked about each member of his family, from his wife to his youngest kids, and talked about how they helped him out. Each time he started talking about one of them, he started crying. He talked about his job in Houston, how it had taken so much time from his family, and how some great members of the ward there helped him remember that his family was what was most important. It was really a great talk. I don't know if I learned anything, but it was a great reminder of why I come to church, even though it drives me crazy sometimes, and the kind of people that I find there every week.

Clark, if you don't mind, please privately let me know who he is. I may know him.

I learned in church yesterday that I judge too quickly. I was asked to speak in sacrament meeting on building a foundation of faith. For obvious reasons this is a difficult topic for me - I find myself feeling quite faithless and skeptical, although as a rule the more negative side of my faith gets presented here. I decided from the start that I was going to be honest about things and not speak as one who has a firm conviction in everything.

So that's what I did. I admitted I have a hard time with faith. I talked a bit about gifts of the spirit and how not everybody has every one, and while I may do well with languages/tongues, faith is not my strong point. I talked about how the prerequisite for church attendance and membership is the earnest seeking, not faith or even belief, and how Alma talks about desire and hope as the starting point. And I talked about how the more I study the less I know, but that I do have faith in Jesus and that is enough because Joseph Smith himself said that everything else is ancillary to that.

It was not a typical talk on faith, that's for sure. And I was nervous about being as honest as I was about my own struggles. Yet I wanted to subtly say to the others in my ward who struggle that they are not alone.

I was much more nervous when I found out who the other speakers would be. I was speaking with the Stake President, a man I previous viewed as being kind of hard-core. And he is hard-core. I think he was uncomfortable during parts of my talk (the bit where I said James was being sarcastic in James 2 jumps to mind). I am sure that my viewpoint is not something he has personal experience with. But afterwards he emailed my wife (he doesn't have my email; few people do) and told her that he appreciated my viewpoint and was touched by my struggle. This was not the response I was expecting, and I am glad to be wrong.

Proof again that speaking honestly from the heart is the way to go. And that I judge people far too quickly.

[Moliere]

3. I fear our missionaries are spreading the story that Daniel was cast into the lions den because he wanted to keep the word of wisdom and avoid alcohol and coffee, rather than for refusing to eat non-kosher foods.

I think you are mixing up OT stories, which is funny given your point.