LDS Garments: Why I Want Out of This Club

[falafel]

Don't we all have access to Jesus's mercy? Isn't that the gift we all get?

Sounds like a new doctrine.

My thoughts exactly. We’re gettinga little too close to pay to play.

[Pelado]

The Lord pulls us through something that is symbolic of the Lord? Like, a whole birthing process?

I don't understand how the veil (the thing keeping us from God, mentally, physically, and spiritually) could possibly stand as a symbol for Christ who is the only one capable of pulling us through the barrier, and who enploys no servant there.

Just doesn't make sense to me, and I don't think it's been taught or even suggested anywhere.

When you put it that way, it doesn't make much sense.

[YOhio]

Just once I'd like the brethren or some other conference speak to address garments by playing off the Snoops lyrics to 'g'z up hoes down.' Something like

"Sagging like a pioneer, garments to they knees
Saint please, you know how we do the undercover
I'm Elder Dallin H Oaks (or the name of whoever is giving the talk), not your average GenCon speaka, see

Some of you don't know about the G thang, baby
It's the smooth temple gear that be driving devils crazy
Now as ya groove to the spirit and ya move to the sound
I'mma hit ya up with the sacred Pound, G's up, sins down"

Such a missed opportunity, IMO.

[Northwestcoug]

[Jeff Lebowski]

[Bo Diddley]

[swampfrog]

Also, the veil is symbolic of Jesus Christ? That sounds new to me. Has it always been taught that way?

The bread and water = Jesus Christ
The baptismal water = Jesus Christ
The garment = Jesus Christ
The veil = Jesus Christ
Anointing oil = Jesus Christ
The Temple = Jesus Christ

"I am the way, the truth, and the light: no man cometh to the father but by me."
"In the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is made manifest." (The power of Godliness = The power of Jesus Christ to cover our sins)

The veil was rent at the time of Christ's death, signifying that his spirit was torn from his body, His resurrection repairs the veil, only through Christ can we be redeemed.

The LDS symbolism teaching is very much lacking.

Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"

[LVAllen]

The bread and water = Jesus Christ
The baptismal water = Jesus Christ
The garment = Jesus Christ
The veil = Jesus Christ
Anointing oil = Jesus Christ
The Temple = Jesus Christ

"I am the way, the truth, and the light: no man cometh to the father but by me."
"In the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is made manifest." (The power of Godliness = The power of Jesus Christ to cover our sins)

The veil was rent at the time of Christ's death, signifying that his spirit was torn from his body, His resurrection repairs the veil, only through Christ can we be redeemed.

The LDS symbolism teaching is very much lacking.

Hebrews 10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"

Out of everything in the list, I still maintain the veil is the one thing that cannot stand as a symbol of Christ because the veil is a barrier. It stopped non-high priests from entering the Holy of Holies. Hebrews 9:8 suggests that the existence of the veil signified that the way into the Holy of Holies hadn't been made manifest yet, because Christ hadn't come and hadn't made His sacrifice. Thus, when Christ came and sacrificed his body, the veil was torn. The way into the Holy of Holies, previously hidden by the veil, was consecrated and made available. It's the consecrated way through the veil that is symbolized by his flesh, not the veil itself.

In modern temples, the veil stops modern temple worshippers. Our doctrine of the veil is that it clouds the memory of pre-mortal life, and keeps us out of God's presence. When we talk about being close to the Lord, or especially holy moments, we describe the veil as being thin. The veil doesn't reveal truth, it conceals it. That is, the veil is the antithesis of who Christ is and what He does, which is why we need His help to pass through. That doesn't mean that the veil can't point us to Christ, because it can. It just isn't a symbol of Christ itself.

[falafel]

Out of everything in the list, I still maintain the veil is the one thing that cannot stand as a symbol of Christ because the veil is a barrier. It stopped non-high priests from entering the Holy of Holies. Hebrews 9:8 suggests that the existence of the veil signified that the way into the Holy of Holies hadn't been made manifest yet, because Christ hadn't come and hadn't made His sacrifice. Thus, when Christ came and sacrificed his body, the veil was torn. The way into the Holy of Holies, previously hidden by the veil, was consecrated and made available. It's the consecrated way through the veil that is symbolized by his flesh, not the veil itself.

In modern temples, the veil stops modern temple worshippers. Our doctrine of the veil is that it clouds the memory of pre-mortal life, and keeps us out of God's presence. When we talk about being close to the Lord, or especially holy moments, we describe the veil as being thin. The veil doesn't reveal truth, it conceals it. That is, the veil is the antithesis of who Christ is and what He does, which is why we need His help to pass through. That doesn't mean that the veil can't point us to Christ, because it can. It just isn't a symbol of Christ itself.

I hadn't heard the veil = Christ theory before now, but there are a few ways I think it makes some sense. The veil protects of us from God's presence, which we can't endure. Jesus is our intermediary with the Father, he stands between us just like the veil does. You travel through the veil into God's presence; you return to God through Christ.

But I'm not totally sold.

[swampfrog]

Out of everything in the list, I still maintain the veil is the one thing that cannot stand as a symbol of Christ because the veil is a barrier. It stopped non-high priests from entering the Holy of Holies. Hebrews 9:8 suggests that the existence of the veil signified that the way into the Holy of Holies hadn't been made manifest yet, because Christ hadn't come and hadn't made His sacrifice. Thus, when Christ came and sacrificed his body, the veil was torn. The way into the Holy of Holies, previously hidden by the veil, was consecrated and made available. It's the consecrated way through the veil that is symbolized by his flesh, not the veil itself.

In modern temples, the veil stops modern temple worshippers. Our doctrine of the veil is that it clouds the memory of pre-mortal life, and keeps us out of God's presence. When we talk about being close to the Lord, or especially holy moments, we describe the veil as being thin. The veil doesn't reveal truth, it conceals it. That is, the veil is the antithesis of who Christ is and what He does, which is why we need His help to pass through. That doesn't mean that the veil can't point us to Christ, because it can. It just isn't a symbol of Christ itself.

https://latterdaybloke.home.blog/202...-and-teaching/

"In the 2022 New Mission Leaders Seminar, President Nelson taught:

“I want you to know what the Apostle Paul taught about the veil of the temple. This is recorded in the book of Hebrews, chapter 10 starting at verse 19. I quote, “Having . . . boldness to enter into the holiest [think of the celestial room] by the blood of Jesus, . . . which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh.”

Your garment is symbolic of the veil; the veil is symbolic of the Lord Jesus Christ. So when you put on your garment, you may feel that you are truly putting upon yourself the very sacred symbol of the Lord Jesus Christ—His life, His ministry and His mission, which was to atone for every daughter and son of God."

[swampfrog]

Probably a mixing of symbolic meanings also. Symbols often have multiple valid interpretations, that is likely what makes them memorable.

Christ is the only way to bring heaven and earth together and allow man to enter the presence of God (Holy of Holies, Celestial Room). Prior to the actual atonement being completed, there was no way, the unsacrificed body of Christ is symbolic of the barrier. Permission to use His sacrifice is His alone to give after been proven worthy. At the veil, we are invited to pass through the rent body of Christ by Christ himself.

[swampfrog]

Probably a mixing of symbolic meanings also. Symbols often have multiple valid interpretations, that is likely what makes them memorable.

Christ is the only way to bring heaven and earth together and allow man to enter the presence of God (Holy of Holies, Celestial Room). Prior to the actual atonement being completed, there was no way, the unsacrificed body of Christ is symbolic of the barrier. Permission to use His sacrifice is His alone to give after been proven worthy. At the veil, we are invited to pass through the rent body of Christ by Christ himself.

Did a session last night. That the veil is symbolic of Christ is mentioned specifically in the current version of the endowment ordinance. Also the above is incorrect in the current version, on the other side of the veil Elohim Himself is the interrogator.

[LVAllen]

Did a session last night. That the veil is symbolic of Christ is mentioned specifically in the current version of the endowment ordinance. Also the above is incorrect in the current version, on the other side of the veil Elohim Himself is the interrogator.

Which is relatively new change, as is the identification of the Person there, and it strikes me as being at odds with the gospel as I understand it. You're telling me that the Savior, who suffered everything, is relegated to a passive symbol in the final reckoning? Elohim is represented in a literal way, but Christ himself isn't waiting there?

"The self-assigned gatekeeper is Jesus Christ, who awaits us out of a deep divine desire to welcome us as much as to certify us; hence, ‘He employeth no servant there.’ (2 Nephi 9:41) If we acknowledge Him now, He will lovingly acknowledge and gladly admit us then!” -Neil A. Maxwell.

In my view, the Lord instructs. The Lord welcomes. The Lord actively brings us into His presence and the presence of the Father after we have done all that He's asked us to do. The veil, the last barrier standing between us and the Lord, is removed for the final time and we leave it behind as we enter the literal presence of Christ and the Father, to go no more out.

It makes no sense to me to use the veil as a symbol of the Lord. Maybe that's a me issue that will take some time to work out. And I don't know why, exactly, it sticks in my craw and doesn't feel correct at this time. It just doesn't. It struck me as odd the first time I heard it in a session, and didn't feel any more true when it was soft-launched in general conference and then rolled out in the recommend interview. (If I was cynical, I'd suggest there will be a number of talks in October session proclaiming that this was true all along).

[Moliere]

Dude, it’s a symbol. It’s not literal. Christ can be the symbol of the veil and also literally waiting for us in heaven.

[swampfrog]

Dude, it’s a symbol. It’s not literal. Christ can be the symbol of the veil and also literally waiting for us in heaven.

To be fair, the history of the endowment is complicated. I think the church needs to move more into the symbolic representation of the human condition for temple ordinances and scripture. But a literal interpretation of many things has been emphasized for a long time. Doing even just a bit of googling on Christ = veil shows that it has been part of Christian tradition for a long time. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/10-20.htm

If the temple ceremony is taken as an ancient tradition, then the veil is easier to understand in a symbolic sense. In the same way that the law of Moses is done away specifically at the meridian of time by Christ's atoning sacrifice, the temple changes then also. Prior to then, only the designated high priest could enter after purification. While Christ's sacrifice had been foretold, it had not been accomplished, so there was no path by which man could behold the face of God and live. The veil prior to Christ pointed to the future event, the rent veil points to the past event. Everything points to Christ, to the atonement, not just where and who, but also when.

Also a problem that we tend to use the word veil in multiple ways.