Where have all the Lamanites gone?

[BlueHair]

If there was already an existing population in the Americas of several million and a group of 20 to 40 arrived 2,600 years ago, how long would it take for their DNA markers to vanish?

Admittedly, it's been a while since I've read the BOM, but I seem to remember something about the Lamanites being the principle ancestors of the American Indians. 20 to 40 people living amongst millions doesn't seem to fit that description.

[CardiacCoug]

Admittedly, it's been a while since I've read the BOM, but I seem to remember something about the Lamanites being the principle ancestors of the American Indians. 20 to 40 people living amongst millions doesn't seem to fit that description.

The Church changed it to "among the ancestors" a few years ago.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...226008,00.html

[BlueHair]

The Church changed it to "among the ancestors" a few years ago.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1...226008,00.html

I wasn't aware of that. What prompted that change? All growing up, I was taught that all American Indians were Lamanites.

[CardiacCoug]

I wasn't aware of that. What prompted that change? All growing up, I was taught that all American Indians were Lamanites.

I think the DNA evidence and limited geography models that FAIR touts probably led to the change.

But it's funny how change happens. First the Church excommunicates Simon Southerton and was in the process of excommunicating Thomas Murphy until there was public outrage about it. Then they decide these guys were right all along and quietly modify the doctrine to basically coincide with the supposed "heretical" opinions.

The moral of the story: Decide for yourself what's true. If you're right, the Church might catch up with you eventually.

[BlueHair]

Okay, so this didn't sit well with me last night, so I dusted off my quad and did a little reading. 2 Nephi Chapter 1 makes is pretty clear that land is intended for them alone as long as they are righteous.

2 Nephi 1:6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.

2 Nephi 1:8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.

God is keeping this land secret from other nations so they don't overrun the land. If there was already an established society consisting of millions of people, the land would already be overrun. It would also be a huge omission in the records they kept. It seems like the other couple of million people would at least play a small part in their story.

[woot]

Okay, so this didn't sit well with me last night, so I dusted off my quad and did a little reading. 2 Nephi Chapter 1 makes is pretty clear that land is intended for them alone as long as they are righteous.





God is keeping this land secret from other nations so they don't overrun the land. If there was already an established society consisting of millions of people, the land would already be overrun. It would also be a huge omission in the records they kept. It seems like the other couple of million people would at least play a small part in their story.

It's absolute delusion to think that the official doctrine hasn't always been that native americans are lamanites. The recent change away from this was a huge one, and one that was only done because evidence showing it to be false was becoming too overwhelming. This change has brought on a new wave of apologetics, as people try to shoehorn their religion into the gaps of the evidence. Nothing new, but let's at least recognize what it is.

[I.J. Reilly]

Okay, so this didn't sit well with me last night, so I dusted off my quad and did a little reading. 2 Nephi Chapter 1 makes is pretty clear that land is intended for them alone as long as they are righteous.





God is keeping this land secret from other nations so they don't overrun the land. If there was already an established society consisting of millions of people, the land would already be overrun. It would also be a huge omission in the records they kept. It seems like the other couple of million people would at least play a small part in their story.

I'm no apologetic, but I don't think that your reading of "overrun" is the only one possible. I think it is pretty clear that the land was "overrun" when other nations came to know of it; that is, North and South America have been stripped of their vast natural resources almost wholly by people from other nations. The previous "owners" of the land have been pretty much disenfranchised from what was their inheritance. I don't see any reason why "overrun" could be speaking about how the land was used versus the number of people (which is also very debatable considering the vast size of the two continents).

It's absolute delusion to think that the official doctrine hasn't always been that native americans are lamanites.

It's statements like this that make people (smart people with quality things to contribute) want to stay out of the foyer. I think you should be a little more sensitive when you call something "absolute delusion" that many hold as part of their religious belief.

[RobinFinderson]

..long time passing...

[woot]

I'm no apologetic, but I don't think that your reading of "overrun" is the only one possible. I think it is pretty clear that the land was "overrun" when other nations came to know of it; that is, North and South America have been stripped of their vast natural resources almost wholly by people from other nations. The previous "owners" of the land have been pretty much disenfranchised from what was their inheritance. I don't see any reason why "overrun" could be speaking about how the land was used versus the number of people (which is also very debatable considering the vast size of the two continents).



It's statements like this that make people (smart people with quality things to contribute) want to stay out of the foyer. I think you should be a little more sensitive when you call something "absolute delusion" that many hold as part of their religious belief.

Many people hold as part of their religious belief that the church's position didn't used to be that native americans are lamanites? I doubt it. If so, those people are just wrong and should educate themselves.

[creekster]

It's absolute delusion to think that the official doctrine hasn't always been . . .

How delusional is it to think that you (especially on this topic) can decide what is absolutely delusional? Give it a rest once in a while, will ya?

[woot]

How delusional is it to think that you (especially on this topic) can decide what is absolutely delusional? Give it a rest once in a while, will ya?

Evidence has already been presented in this thread, and I doubt anyone here would seriously dispute what I've said anyway. Is it just the justifiably strong wording that gets your hackles up?

[Indy Coug]

Evidence has already been presented in this thread, and I doubt anyone here would seriously dispute what I've said anyway. Is it just the justifiably strong wording that gets your hackles up?

Yes, your delivery sucks.

[woot]

Yes, your delivery sucks.

It's true, I should care more about emotions when stating obvious facts. But there I go again.

[creekster]

Evidence has already been presented in this thread, and I doubt anyone here would seriously dispute what I've said anyway. Is it just the justifiably strong wording that gets your hackles up?

evidence? really? Hardly. I seriously and earnestly dispute that your statement of former doctrine is necessarily correct or that any belief in doctrine is absolutely delusional. The wording is not justified, and neither is your exceptional pride. You are very intelligent, but sometimes you don't seem very smart.

[creekster]

It's true, I should care more about emotions when stating obvious facts. But there I go again.

this has nothing to do with shielding anyone's feelings. If that were the test you would be banned. It has to do with making statements that are absolutes in areas where there can be none. You base your absolutes on conclusions you have reached based on your life experience which may or may not be applicable to others.