Stop popping off, woman

[Eddie]

I like our Gospel Doctrine teacher most of the time.

He referred to Miriam as a prophet. Explained that a prophet is someone who testifies of Christ - Miriam had had visions, etc., and while she wasn't THE prophet, she was a prophet. He believed she was probably the instigator, which is why she got the punishment and Aaron didn't.

When it comes to women and their roles - interestingly enough last week we talked about Moses needing help to hold up his arms when Israel was fighting against Amalek. When Moses tired, Aaron and Hur held up his arms. Our teacher stated that some GA's have described this as the "First Presidency" at that time. Interestingly enough Hur was a woman. So there was a woman in the First Presidency.

He didn't speculate about her holding the priesthood or what that meant exactly, just that there are a lot of things we don't know about.

Interesting stuff to think about, I suppose.

[falafel]

By the way, I'm working out a response to this. We got home late last night and I didn't have the time or energy to craft a well-worded and thoughtful response.

Thanks. I was just perusing this thread for that very purpose.

[Rosebud]

This might be my favorite paragraph on CUF. It sums up my "beef" with church instruction and lessons.

Awwwww..... really???? Thanks Eddie. :hug: Oh yeah, we don't use hug smilies on CUF. snap.....

I remember sitting in SS and hearing the story about David and his buddies that refused the kings meat and the teacher used that point to talk about how the word of wisdom is an eternal law and was in force during the OT. I also remember many, many discussions in seminary on what type of wine Jesus used in the NT. Obviously we came to the conclusion that it was "new" wine since he obviously wouldn't have used wine with alcohol.

So so so classic.

By the way, I'm working out a response to this. We got home late last night and I didn't have the time or energy to craft a well-worded and thoughtful response.

Yay!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Coincidentally, I was sitting in SS yesterday thinking to myself how odd it is that we are so prone to immediately try to relate what we read in the OT to the doctrine, practices, etc in the modern church. Sometimes I would prefer that we just read and discuss the material at face value. Thus I have found this thread interesting and agree with much of Rosebud's observations.

[Mrs. Funk]

Here goes:

As I have personally struggled with my feelings about the priesthood, I’ve frequently been struck with the question, “Why not?”

Why not give women the priesthood?

So far, I’ve been unable to find a satisfactory answer to this question that is grounded in good sense.

I’ve heard the argument that women can be bear children and that’s why men have the priesthood. In my opinion, motherhood and the priesthood are qualitatively separate. Women are born with the physical ability to bear children. Men are given the priesthood. It’s an endowment of power that our church has affirmatively granted to men but not to women.

I’ve heard the argument that women should be grateful they don’t have the priesthood and that they wouldn’t want it anyway. To me, that’s not really the point. Rather, in my view, the point is that men simply for having the correct plumbing are granted the authority to act in God’s behalf. I’m not satisfied that men are better suited to wield this authority by virtue of being men.

Some people claim that women are innately more spiritual than men and that is why women don’t need the priesthood. I think this is denigrating to both men and women, and is a cheap trick to try to smooth feathers ruffled by the patriarchy often inherent in male-dominated organizations. I don’t believe women are more innately spiritual than men, or vice-versa. I think individuals have more or less spiritual capacity based upon their individual choices and natures. The act of receiving or acting upon the priesthood fails to necessarily equate to increased spirituality.

Others make the argument that women are nurturers and that’s why they don’t need the priesthood. Women may or may not be nurturing, based on my own observations. Men may or may not be nurturing. Children need attentive fathers as much as they do mothers. Nurturing has nothing to do with the priesthood.

I can’t attribute the lack of female priesthood authority to Eve’s fall because of how our church views Eve. Her fall is viewed as a selfless act to bring about humanity. Her wisdom in breaking God’s command perpetuated His eternal plan. I see no logic in denying women the priesthood because of Eve’s choice.

Perhaps the most persuasive argument is simply that this is God’s command and the pattern He desires for His Church. In the Old Testament, this may have been the case because women were considered “unclean” for a week out of every month during menses. Perhaps it was impracticable to have people in charge who couldn’t perform their duties one-quarter of the time by virtue of their “uncleanliness.” Women are not, however, considered unclean for this reason anymore. More likely, women do not receive the priesthood because of the tradition of male-dominated religion. Tradition, not divine edict, seem to dictate who receives the priesthood. Men traditionally have controlled religion, and men currently run the Church. Priesthood correlation is one of the better examples of this. I don’t believe that women are more likely than men to exercise unrighteous dominion (I’ve never heard this specifically articulated, and it sounds like a bonkers excuse to me).

Our church has historical precedent for women receiving and exercising priesthood authority. It has been expounded upon more articulately elsewhere on this board than I have room for here, but it absolutely did happen. (Do a simple search for "Women and priesthood" on here and you'll find a number of well-articulated posts). Women met together over the Red Brick Store and gave each other blessings and spoke in tongues. Consider this very interesting edition of Dialogue for more information. Women perform priesthood functions in our temples. I am unpersuaded that God does not wish for women to exercise priesthood power.

I find our current pattern that requires females to confess sexual sins to male ecclesiastical leaders one that is fraught with potential for abuse and the likelihood that the women will simply not confess. I would absolutely be more willing to talk about sins and problems with a female priesthood leader. I don’t believe the solution is to take the priesthood away from males; males should have male priesthood leaders to confer with as desired.

Granting women the priesthood is the biggest step the Church can take to creating a holistically service-oriented organization. Women could call upon other women for priesthood blessings, making Visiting Teaching ever so much less of a joke than it currently is. It makes absolutely no sense to me that women cannot participate blessing children they co-created with God and their spouses. Men are not better equipped to call upon the power of God because they are men. I think we may very well look back on women and the priesthood with the same ruefulness as we view blacks and the priesthood now.

The world and this church in particular is in need of powerful, capable women who will bring about the Lord’s work in meaningful ways. Granting women the priesthood is one more tool to do so.

[wuapinmon]

I would absolutely be more willing to talk about sins and problems with a female priesthood leader.

All kidding aside, me too.

[beefytee]

Our church has historical precedent for women receiving and exercising priesthood authority. It has been expounded upon more articulately elsewhere on this board than I have room for here, but it absolutely did happen. (Do a simple search for "Women and priesthood" on here and you'll find a number of well-articulated posts). Women met together over the Red Brick Store and gave each other blessings and spoke in tongues. Consider this very interesting edition of Dialogue for more information. Women perform priesthood functions in our temples. I am unpersuaded that God does not wish for women to exercise priesthood power.

I did a quick search, but couldn't see anything obvious.

What modern day revealed doctrine do we have concerning womens' exclusion of receiving the Priesthood?

Is there any parallels to blacks and the priesthood? e.g. a time when the doctrine was clarified or a similar justification to the curse of Cain/Ham.

[Mrs. Funk]

I did a quick search, but couldn't see anything obvious.

What modern day revealed doctrine do we have concerning womens' exclusion of receiving the Priesthood?

Is there any parallels to blacks and the priesthood? e.g. a time when the doctrine was clarified or a similar justification to the curse of Cain/Ham.

Try "Women priesthood Rosebud." I didn't want to single out her posts, but this thread had some interesting insights.

Consider reading the article located on p. 21 of the Dialogue edition I posted, called "LDS Women and Priesthood - The Historical Relationship of Mormon Women and Priesthood." Page 23 quotes Brigham Young stating that "[women] can never hold the priesthood apart from their husbands." It appears that Joseph Smith was all for women having priesthood authority and performing blessings, and that this shifted somewhat when Brigham Young took over the church. As late as 1907, Joseph F. Smith wrote that it is appropriate for husbands and wives to administ to family together, but that the husband should be the mouthpiece. (p. 26) I don't care to summarize the whole article, since it is a fairly quick read. It definitely lays out a lot worth thinking about. The article chronciles a somewhat inexplicable shift from women performing washing and annointing and healing the sick to a fairly staunch prohibition on these activities.

As far as I know, we haven't received specific official justification about women and the priesthood. A lot of the argument I elucidated in my post are things commonly tossed around in LDS Sunday Schools. I believe Elder Widstoe was responsible for the promulgation of the belief that motherhood is comparable to the priesthood, stating that "woman has her gift of equal magnitude—motherhood." (p. 30)

[DU Ute]

The world and this church in particular is in need of powerful, capable women who will bring about the Lord’s work in meaningful ways. Granting women the priesthood is one more tool to do so.

Thanks for sharing. The fact that Mrs. Funk regularly makes quality posts like this while her husband spends his time defending the actions of the Portland Trailblazers and yammering on about Win Shares and VORP is a testament to the fact that women are more than ready to hold the priesthood. I really am a big fan of your husband, I just enjoy giving him a hard time.

[Mrs. Funk]

[quote=DU Ute;340783]Thanks for sharing. The fact that Mrs. Funk regularly makes quality posts like this while her husband spends his time defending the actions of the Portland Trailblazers and yammering on about Win Shares and VORP is a testament to the fact that women are more than ready to hold the priesthood.I really am a big fan of your husband, I just enjoy giving him a hard time.[/quote]

Mpfunk is a good man. I have nothing to contribute to sports discussion, so I can neither defend nor criticize his views on sports.

[MartyFunkhouser]

Thanks for sharing. The fact that Mrs. Funk regularly makes quality posts like this while her husband spends his time defending the actions of the Portland Trailblazers and yammering on about Win Shares and VORP is a testament to the fact that women are more than ready to hold the priesthood. I really am a big fan of your husband, I just enjoy giving him a hard time.

Look you have a point with the Trailblazers, but I will not sit back while you call serious discussion about advanced statistical analysis in baseball yammering. I don't demand an apology, but Win Shares and VORP demand one.

[Mrs. Funk]

I didn't mean to kill the thread with my rant about women and the priesthood. I was enjoying the trajectory of the discussion and feel bad that it died out.

[Eddie]

This last conference President Packer (I think it was him) spoke during the Priesthood session about blessings and the priesthood. I thought it was pretty interesting - and I actually thought of your post about "what have you felt" in asking about the priesthood.

I'd recommend it to you - just for curiousity sake.

I think you could put me on the side as believing that at some point in this life or the next there will be some form of priesthood that women will hold. I don't know what it will look like or what it will mean. I just think it will happen.

[Mrs. Funk]

This last conference President Packer (I think it was him) spoke during the Priesthood session about blessings and the priesthood. I thought it was pretty interesting - and I actually thought of your post about "what have you felt" in asking about the priesthood.

I'd recommend it to you - just for curiousity sake.

I think you could put me on the side as believing that at some point in this life or the next there will be some form of priesthood that women will hold. I don't know what it will look like or what it will mean. I just think it will happen.

I'm not certain what post of mine you are referring to, but I'll take a look at the talk. I was disappointed that basically the first talk in the first session of conference this April from Packer was about supporting the menfolk in their priesthood duties and the importance of correlation. Perhaps the talk you mentioned is a bit less disheartening?

[Eddie]

Oops - I need to keep my CUF personalities straight.

I think it might have been supergabbers now that I think about it. So never mind...

I missed President Packer's talk Saturday morning talk. I was working and must admit I haven't looked into it.


I get to hear from Sister Beck this sunday and am looking forward to hearing what she has to say during our super duper multi-stake conference broadcast.