Confidence in church leadership

[mUUser]

Even if it's difficult to relate to the leadership of the Church (and it certainly can be), or even if disagreement comes occassionally (which it does), I can't help but believe these are exceptional people to a man.

The weeding out of individuals to get to that level is as intense as any process for any organization. They're accomplished in every phase of life -- career, service, family.

When you see the twelve & FP, you see some of the most exceptional human beings on the planet. When they speak -- one should listen -- even if in the end we choose to see things differently -- but their words are definately worth considering.

Bear in mind, I say these things knowing I can be fairly stubborn towards the Church and some of its teaching/policies.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I've mentioned this story before, I think, that came from a close friend (Franz) from my mission is a German with excellent English skills. He has been employed by a couple of major U.S. corporations to help manage European operations. Several years ago, while serving as an Area Authority in Central Europe, he was asked to set up and manage President Hinckley's itinerary for an upcoming trip to Germany and Switzerland. Pres. Hinckley's admin sent him the proposed schedule and Franz called immediately and said there must be a mistake, as the schedule was too demanding, incorporating far more meetings, travel and tasks than he thought possible and, per Franz, roughly twice what U.S. execs half the Prophet's age would try to accomplish on trips to the continent (which Franz had helped schedule and manage as part of his occupation). The admin assured Franz that the schedule was fine.

On the first morning of Pres. Hinckley's trip, Franz was seated on the stand in the local chapel awaiting the Prophet's arrival. As President Hinckley entered the chapel, walking slowly and unsteadily with the assistance of a cane, Franz's first thought was (and I quote): "Oh my Lord, I've killed the Prophet!", thinking there was no way President Hinckley could endure the schedule that was set for him over the ensuing days. But when President Hinckley stood at the pulpit, Franz said the transformation in Hinckley's posture, speaking voice and overall bearing was incredible, even electric. After the Prophet's talk, however, he relaxed and went back to being rather feeble. This was repeated throughout the trip.

I don't envision a Chippendale's-type calendar of buff geriatric GA's, but there's no question that most possess an uncommon vitality for their ages.

My line of thoughts while I was reading your post.

"President Hinkley was like Yoda at the end of the second crappy Star Wars prequel."

"The church's demands killed that poor man!"

"Wait...he lived to the age of 97."

[LA Ute]

So how is your relationship with general authorities? Obviously most of us don't have personal relationships with them (I don't, at least), but how do you relate to them? What's you dynamic?

I've only known two GAs well. One has died and the other is still in the First Quorum. He was my very young bishop (age 28 when called) in my late teen-age years -- the most critical years for having a a good bishop. He was simply monumental in my life and I owe him a great deal. I have story upon story about him and love him to pieces, as my daughter would say. After he was called as a GA a bunch of us who were "his priests" had a surprise party for him. Imagine a group of men in their 50s sitting in a room, telling this man how much he meant to them for the way he loved and served them almost 30 years earlier. It was an unforgettable experience.

Anyway, I relate to the other GAs the way most of us do. Mostly I have contact with them when they come to stake conference and I sit in priesthood leadership meeting on Saturday afternoon to be taught by them. They are all different and it's fascinating to observe the differences. Some are much easier for me to relate to than others, but it's always memorable and uplifting to be around them. Sometimes I see them in airports and say hello. I sat next to a GA on a flight from L.A. to Salt Lake once. Without going into anecdote after anecdote I can say that all the GAs I have had any contact with are extraordinary and admirable men. I have heard stories of GAs (only one, actually) with difficult personalities and I am sure there are others. But from everything I know they live very consecrated lives and I respect and support them.

[PaloAltoCougar]

In the '80s at the SF megafirm where I worked at the time, the senior corporate partner asked me to work with him on an acquisition of a large healthcare organization. He told me I'd be working with the organization's principal outside law firm, a medium-sized firm on the peninsula. I was told that the primary attorney on the account, in addition to being a fine attorney, was one of the nicest, most ethical men my adviser had ever met. He turned out to be right; the attorney I worked with was Quentin Cook, and he had the respect of everyone involved in the deal. Quentin was, and is, one of the kindest, most charitable people I've ever known, in addition to being a very bright lawyer.

I've gotten to know a few other GA's, and with only one exception have really respected and admired all of them. I'm also aware of a faux pas or two committed by GA's who are otherwise good, but imperfect, men. But compared with the screw-ups I've seen at a variety of secular organizations, I think Church leadership is, on balance, really good.

[cowboy]

I have met a few GA's, and without exception they gave the impression that they sincerely cared about me. They have all been the type of people that I wanted to spend time with and become like. Several of my best friends are children and grandchildren of prophets and apostles, and I have never heard any of them say anything negative about their own father/grandfather, or the general authorities they have known. I'm sure there are difficult GA's, and I'm sure that some of them make some pretty egregious errors in judgement, but I believe the vast majority of them are very admirable men.

Danimal, please don't take this wrong, but is it possible that you are projecting your hang-ups with church doctrine and policy onto its representatives? Perhaps its not their personalities or leadership style as much as the doctrines they support that undermines your confidence? If that's that case, all I can tell you is that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and that someday, either in this life or the next, all of the things that don't make sense now will eventually come together.

Since you nearly fed me breakfast once, I feel we have a bond, and I'm rooting for you in your struggle.

[Danimal]

I have met a few GA's, and without exception they gave the impression that they sincerely cared about me. They have all been the type of people that I wanted to spend time with and become like. Several of my best friends are children and grandchildren of prophets and apostles, and I have never heard any of them say anything negative about their own father/grandfather, or the general authorities they have known. I'm sure there are difficult GA's, and I'm sure that some of them make some pretty egregious errors in judgement, but I believe the vast majority of them are very admirable men.

Danimal, please don't take this wrong, but is it possible that you are projecting your hang-ups with church doctrine and policy onto its representatives? Perhaps its not their personalities or leadership style as much as the doctrines they support that undermines your confidence? If that's that case, all I can tell you is that the God I believe in is perfectly just, and that someday, either in this life or the next, all of the things that don't make sense now will eventually come together.

Since you nearly fed me breakfast once, I feel we have a bond, and I'm rooting for you in your struggle.

That's right, we do owe you a breakfast. I hope you make it near us again so we can make up for it.

I appreciate your encouragement. I'm sure that I project my own hang-ups about doctrine/policy at times -- heaven knows I have plenty of them. I'm sure many GA's are awesome in person, but my more important point is that the GA's, as an organization, come across as authoritarian. I don't get the sense that they're in tune with the average member of the church (not that I'm the usual member). There are no real avenues of providing feedback or ideas to them. Only on rare occasions do they admit they may have been wrong about something. Dissenting opinions either do not occur or are not allowed to be publicly made known. These things come across as authoritarian to me. Clearly, though, they don't to others, so at least some of it relates to my views and experiences. I think if what they said matched better with my personal experience of life, then I'd have more faith in the system and could give them more leeway. There is a real mismatch between what they say the church/God etc. has to offer me, and what I feel I have received.

[faith]

As someone who no longer considers herself Mormon, I don’t know how valuable my response to this thread is, but I definitely have some thoughts.

I have always had a bit of difficulty with the idea of following authority, because I believe that I am ultimately responsible for my decisions, and I have wanted to do what is right for the sake of me really feeling that it is right and not because a leader has told me to do so. With that context, General Conference always made me a bit nervous. What if I didn’t agree with what someone said? Would it be because I am not in tune with the spirit? The time leading up to conference would often be one extra-filled with worry and prayer.

My views towards church leadership definitely changed over time. When I grew up in a small branch on Long Island, even though we attended General Conference, the leaders seemed so distant from my little world. The only leadership that really mattered to me was my Branch President. It wasn’t until I attended BYU and was exposed to General Authorities on a regular basis that I began to feel as if they were part of my world. I was at the devotional when Cody Judy threatened President Hunter, and that experience intensified my love and respect for President Hunter. I got to know Aileen Clyde a little bit and absolutely adored her. I had a number of negative interactions with Merrill Bateman when he was President at BYU, which really confused me because I wanted to respect him, especially since he was a GA. It was really on my mission that I struggled most with respecting church leaders, specifically with my mission president. I came out of that experience more than ever convinced that no matter what our calling and no matter how pure our desires are, we are human beings who make mistakes and are being constantly humbled. We grow up in different cultures and times, with different ways of communicating. We are so limited in our views of each other and don’t often know what is going on in hearts and minds and personal lives (including those of our leaders). The proverb of the blind Indian men touching different parts of an elephant and trying to understand what it is really like comes to mind. I have come to accept that my perception of reality is limited. Particularly, when it seems difficult to relate to a leader or an approach, it seems to me that it comes down to a question of faith. If you believe in the church, do you believe that God will not let his/her church go astray? Do you believe that the church leadership, albeit imperfect, receives accurate revelation for its members and that you can be influenced by the Holy Ghost as to how that revelation relates to you personally?

At this point in my spiritual life, I for the most part feel no more connections to the Church Leadership. However, on Saturday, my former Branch President from Long Island was called to be an Area Seventy. He is someone who I love dearly and respect enormously. Even though I no longer participate in the church, I am so happy for my LDS friends and family.

[Tick's wife]

[QUOTE=Eddie Jones;324813]Where do people hear stuff like this? It can't be a Utah thing since I lived there for a long time and never heard it. It's not mentioned in Texas either. Maybe it's only in California that people actually say and believe this.[/QUOTE

some pple have said things face to face, to us but most of the time, it's said differently or in a round about way....Tick will tell you about the guy that tells him that we are not following the Lord's way because I work....he can also tell you that his own brother said it to him as well....our life is good and that is what matters. each family is different

[Tick's wife]

when we are in Utah, I feel the Spirit so much.....when we are in WA, visiting old peeps, I feel the Spirit.....Utah is a surreal life, in my eyes but I feel the Spirit, although Tick thinks I won't be able to make it there....

[UtahDan]

Exactly.

You know, I have hoped that there would be little negativity around this conference. I have some fatigue on that too. The truth is, there has been very, very little negativity. The most we get is a very thoughtful post from a poster I think most of us wish would post more. It might not be a topic everyone wants to discuss, particularly in light of conference. That is why Indy's instinct to just stay away from it is a wise one.

But neither his smugness nor yours is justified. Go survey the last 100 threads in the foyer. Only a tiny fraction fit the caricature. And there has been a lot of good positive stuff lately, a lot.

[UtahDan]

Particularly, when it seems difficult to relate to a leader or an approach, it seems to me that it comes down to a question of faith. If you believe in the church, do you believe that God will not let his/her church go astray? Do you believe that the church leadership, albeit imperfect, receives accurate revelation for its members and that you can be influenced by the Holy Ghost as to how that revelation relates to you personally?

It is always a pleasure when you chime in.

[Danimal]

As someone who no longer considers herself Mormon, I don’t know how valuable my response to this thread is, but I definitely have some thoughts.

I have always had a bit of difficulty with the idea of following authority, because I believe that I am ultimately responsible for my decisions, and I have wanted to do what is right for the sake of me really feeling that it is right and not because a leader has told me to do so. With that context, General Conference always made me a bit nervous. What if I didn’t agree with what someone said? Would it be because I am not in tune with the spirit? The time leading up to conference would often be one extra-filled with worry and prayer.

My views towards church leadership definitely changed over time. When I grew up in a small branch on Long Island, even though we attended General Conference, the leaders seemed so distant from my little world. The only leadership that really mattered to me was my Branch President. It wasn’t until I attended BYU and was exposed to General Authorities on a regular basis that I began to feel as if they were part of my world. I was at the devotional when Cody Judy threatened President Hunter, and that experience intensified my love and respect for President Hunter. I got to know Aileen Clyde a little bit and absolutely adored her. I had a number of negative interactions with Merrill Bateman when he was President at BYU, which really confused me because I wanted to respect him, especially since he was a GA. It was really on my mission that I struggled most with respecting church leaders, specifically with my mission president. I came out of that experience more than ever convinced that no matter what our calling and no matter how pure our desires are, we are human beings who make mistakes and are being constantly humbled. We grow up in different cultures and times, with different ways of communicating. We are so limited in our views of each other and don’t often know what is going on in hearts and minds and personal lives (including those of our leaders). The proverb of the blind Indian men touching different parts of an elephant and trying to understand what it is really like comes to mind. I have come to accept that my perception of reality is limited. Particularly, when it seems difficult to relate to a leader or an approach, it seems to me that it comes down to a question of faith. If you believe in the church, do you believe that God will not let his/her church go astray? Do you believe that the church leadership, albeit imperfect, receives accurate revelation for its members and that you can be influenced by the Holy Ghost as to how that revelation relates to you personally?

At this point in my spiritual life, I for the most part feel no more connections to the Church Leadership. However, on Saturday, my former Branch President from Long Island was called to be an Area Seventy. He is someone who I love dearly and respect enormously. Even though I no longer participate in the church, I am so happy for my LDS friends and family.

Thanks for sharing this. There's a lot I can relate to here.

[Tick's wife]

As someone who no longer considers herself Mormon, I don’t know how valuable my response to this thread is, but I definitely have some thoughts.

I have always had a bit of difficulty with the idea of following authority, because I believe that I am ultimately responsible for my decisions, and I have wanted to do what is right for the sake of me really feeling that it is right and not because a leader has told me to do so. With that context, General Conference always made me a bit nervous. What if I didn’t agree with what someone said? Would it be because I am not in tune with the spirit? The time leading up to conference would often be one extra-filled with worry and prayer.

My views towards church leadership definitely changed over time. When I grew up in a small branch on Long Island, even though we attended General Conference, the leaders seemed so distant from my little world. The only leadership that really mattered to me was my Branch President. It wasn’t until I attended BYU and was exposed to General Authorities on a regular basis that I began to feel as if they were part of my world. I was at the devotional when Cody Judy threatened President Hunter, and that experience intensified my love and respect for President Hunter. I got to know Aileen Clyde a little bit and absolutely adored her. I had a number of negative interactions with Merrill Bateman when he was President at BYU, which really confused me because I wanted to respect him, especially since he was a GA. It was really on my mission that I struggled most with respecting church leaders, specifically with my mission president. I came out of that experience more than ever convinced that no matter what our calling and no matter how pure our desires are, we are human beings who make mistakes and are being constantly humbled. We grow up in different cultures and times, with different ways of communicating. We are so limited in our views of each other and don’t often know what is going on in hearts and minds and personal lives (including those of our leaders). The proverb of the blind Indian men touching different parts of an elephant and trying to understand what it is really like comes to mind. I have come to accept that my perception of reality is limited. Particularly, when it seems difficult to relate to a leader or an approach, it seems to me that it comes down to a question of faith. If you believe in the church, do you believe that God will not let his/her church go astray? Do you believe that the church leadership, albeit imperfect, receives accurate revelation for its members and that you can be influenced by the Holy Ghost as to how that revelation relates to you personally?

At this point in my spiritual life, I for the most part feel no more connections to the Church Leadership. However, on Saturday, my former Branch President from Long Island was called to be an Area Seventy. He is someone who I love dearly and respect enormously. Even though I no longer participate in the church, I am so happy for my LDS friends and family.

glad to know others feel this way

[TripletDaddy]

Danimal, I have been thinking about your post for most of the day, with a brief break to watch the Lakers lose to the Spurs and then a partial break to make and eat homemade taquitos for dinner.

I found it interesting that while your thread is titled "confidence in church leaders," your query focuses on our individual relationship with church leaders.

That discrepancy has been the focus of my thoughts. Specifically, to what extent do I need a relationship or connection with Church leadership in order to have confidence in them? I know this may not really be what you were asking, but it was the question I was mulling today as I sat and listened to these folks during GC.

First, I have never really had any relationship with any GA, any more than I have a connection to the President of the US, or the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. I don't know them, I have met a few by handshake, and have never spent any significant amount of time with them. I have no anecdotes about airplane travels, stake conferences, or Sunday afternoon run-ins at the buffet at Little America. None of my relatives are LDS, so I don't have any grandparents, uncles, or distant relations that are or were GAs. So with that in mind, I can state plainly that I basically have no personal connection with GAs. However, I have never sought one, either. It is largely unimportant to me that I establish any connection with them. General Authorities come and go. The counsel usually remains the same. But there is no salvation in our relationship with a General Authority and, as such, I have never invested of myself to "get to know them." This is not to say that I am uninterested in what they have to say, which brings me to the second point.

While I have no personal relationship or connection to these folks, I still have full confidence in them. I have confidence that they are genuinely good people. That they are truly interested in the well-being of the Church and its members, as well as the world in general. I believe that they are imperfect and make mistakes, sometimes speaking things that may not be entirely accurate, albeit well-intentioned. I also know that these men have given up any hope of what I would consider to be a "normal" life as they assume the mantle of GA, subjecting themselves and their family to perpetual scrutiny, to a loss of privacy, and to a surrendering of the standard niceties of daily family life that the rank and file get to enjoy. In short, I try to cut them slack if they do or say something that might raise an eyebrow because these folks seem to be trying their best and they are giving up so much to fulfill this massive calling that has been placed on their shoulders.

The only real relationship or connection that I have with Church "leadership" is my relationship with the Savior. Yes, I dig my local leaders and have loved all my Bishops and Stake Presidents. They are great men and I value my relationship with them. But these friendships and associations at the local level do not drive my daily behavior. Like GAs, my Bishops and Stake Presidents come and go. They are expendable. They are replaceable. I don't fulfill callings or attend Church because I want to impress my Bishop. My continually ebbing and flowing relationship with the Savior is the one that matters to me. That is the one that I believe will help shape the path to my salvation. I have invested of myself to establish that relationship. I spend time pondering that relationship. I feel concern when that relationship is distant. I rejoice when that relationship is strong. And it is because of that relationship that I place my confidence in our GAs.

I have a feeling that our General Authorities would be just fine if members relinquished any quest to get to know them and focus more on simply getting to know the Savior more. I share this last sentence not to cast judgment on anything you have posted, but probably to make me feel better about not caring whether I have a connection to General Authorities. It sounds cold, and I don't mean it to sound cold, but I guess I don't really care if I have a connection with them.

I appreciated your thoughts on this, though, as you gave me much to ponder this weekend. Obviously, your post was very timely given the events of this weekend. So anyhow, best of luck in however you choose to address this question.

[Danimal]

Danimal, I have been thinking about your post for most of the day, with a brief break to watch the Lakers lose to the Spurs and then a partial break to make and eat homemade taquitos for dinner.

I found it interesting that while your thread is titled "confidence in church leaders," your query focuses on our individual relationship with church leaders.

That discrepancy has been the focus of my thoughts. Specifically, to what extent do I need a relationship or connection with Church leadership in order to have confidence in them? I know this may not really be what you were asking, but it was the question I was mulling today as I sat and listened to these folks during GC.

First, I have never really had any relationship with any GA, any more than I have a connection to the President of the US, or the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. I don't know them, I have met a few by handshake, and have never spent any significant amount of time with them. I have no anecdotes about airplane travels, stake conferences, or Sunday afternoon run-ins at the buffet at Little America. None of my relatives are LDS, so I don't have any grandparents, uncles, or distant relations that are or were GAs. So with that in mind, I can state plainly that I basically have no personal connection with GAs. However, I have never sought one, either. It is largely unimportant to me that I establish any connection with them. General Authorities come and go. The counsel usually remains the same. But there is no salvation in our relationship with a General Authority and, as such, I have never invested of myself to "get to know them." This is not to say that I am uninterested in what they have to say, which brings me to the second point.

While I have no personal relationship or connection to these folks, I still have full confidence in them. I have confidence that they are genuinely good people. That they are truly interested in the well-being of the Church and its members, as well as the world in general. I believe that they are imperfect and make mistakes, sometimes speaking things that may not be entirely accurate, albeit well-intentioned. I also know that these men have given up any hope of what I would consider to be a "normal" life as they assume the mantle of GA, subjecting themselves and their family to perpetual scrutiny, to a loss of privacy, and to a surrendering of the standard niceties of daily family life that the rank and file get to enjoy. In short, I try to cut them slack if they do or say something that might raise an eyebrow because these folks seem to be trying their best and they are giving up so much to fulfill this massive calling that has been placed on their shoulders.

The only real relationship or connection that I have with Church "leadership" is my relationship with the Savior. Yes, I dig my local leaders and have loved all my Bishops and Stake Presidents. They are great men and I value my relationship with them. But these friendships and associations at the local level do not drive my daily behavior. Like GAs, my Bishops and Stake Presidents come and go. They are expendable. They are replaceable. I don't fulfill callings or attend Church because I want to impress my Bishop. My continually ebbing and flowing relationship with the Savior is the one that matters to me. That is the one that I believe will help shape the path to my salvation. I have invested of myself to establish that relationship. I spend time pondering that relationship. I feel concern when that relationship is distant. I rejoice when that relationship is strong. And it is because of that relationship that I place my confidence in our GAs.

I have a feeling that our General Authorities would be just fine if members relinquished any quest to get to know them and focus more on simply getting to know the Savior more. I share this last sentence not to cast judgment on anything you have posted, but probably to make me feel better about not caring whether I have a connection to General Authorities. It sounds cold, and I don't mean it to sound cold, but I guess I don't really care if I have a connection with them.

I appreciated your thoughts on this, though, as you gave me much to ponder this weekend. Obviously, your post was very timely given the events of this weekend. So anyhow, best of luck in however you choose to address this question.

No offense taken. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.