Confidence in church leadership

[Surfah]

I'm with Eddie Jones. I don't think the analogy works for me either. I don't report to any of the GA's like I do my boss so why would I begrudge the fact that I don't have a personal relationship with them? Your analogy works best on the local level.

You said you desire a relationship though with the GAs like that you have with your current boss. Relationships go both ways. You feel that their approach to you is impersonal, but have you thought about anything more you could do to trust them?

As for me, it's mostly a by their fruits you shall know thing. I haven't had a personal relationship with any save one who is now emeritus. HFN knows him. He's a great man and I trusted him implicitly. But that was not by virtue of his title but by knowing the man he is. I think if we were all afforded more access to the brethren and had more intimate relationship with them besides a bi-annual satellite broadcast we'd appreciate them more. I just don't know what more the Church can do in this regard.

[clackamascoug]

You're always free to start your own church, and run it how you want to.

It's amazing how the "openness of thought" around here applies to only the "questioning disenchanted club". As if no one else can offer an opinion that differs from the standard Que.

Here's the intent of "You're always free to start your own church."

The premise starts with the assumption that the LDS Church is the True and Living Church upon the earth. Since (imo) it is - your choice of complaining about the leadership, and about "your relationship" with mean spirited GA's is misplaced on the priority chart . What good does it do for you to value a relationship with a hired man when your relationship is supposed to be with the Savior Jesus Christ.

So... You're always free to start your own church is an attempt to tell you in a kind way - Quit being another Zions Camp problem, complaining about your hurt feelings, when you should man up and deal with the Lord and his Imperfect Church.

Or if you can't... leave it like the other "intellectuals" around here and start your own church.

[Danimal]

I'm with Eddie Jones. I don't think the analogy works for me either. I don't report to any of the GA's like I do my boss so why would I begrudge the fact that I don't have a personal relationship with them? Your analogy works best on the local level.

You said you desire a relationship though with the GAs like that you have with your current boss. Relationships go both ways. You feel that their approach to you is impersonal, but have you thought about anything more you could do to trust them?

As for me, it's mostly a by their fruits you shall know thing. I haven't had a personal relationship with any save one who is now emeritus. HFN knows him. He's a great man and I trusted him implicitly. But that was not by virtue of his title but by knowing the man he is. I think if we were all afforded more access to the brethren and had more intimate relationship with them besides a bi-annual satellite broadcast we'd appreciate them more. I just don't know what more the Church can do in this regard.

I didn't mean it as a direct comparison; it was a just a way of demonstrating two different kinds of relationships -- in this case a way of relating to a group of leaders of the church. One way is in touch with the members' needs and lives, is non-authoritarian, and engenders trust and goodwill. The other is distant, authoritarian, and results in distrust and skepticism. For better or worse, the latter is the way I view the GA's. Not necessarily any particular GA, but them as a whole. That's the way the organization operates, at least from my perspective.

My experience with the organization is that their advice often doesn't fit with my judgment and perspective. You're right that there may well be things that I could do to trust them more, but as I mention, their whole approach makes it difficult to engender trust.

[Danimal]

It's amazing how the "openness of thought" around here applies to only the "questioning disenchanted club". As if no one else can offer an opinion that differs from the standard Que.

Here's the intent of "You're always free to start your own church."

The premise starts with the assumption that the LDS Church is the True and Living Church upon the earth. Since (imo) it is - your choice of complaining about the leadership, and about "your relationship" with mean spirited GA's is misplaced on the priority chart . What good does it do for you to value a relationship with a hired man when your relationship is supposed to be with the Savior Jesus Christ.

So... You're always free to start your own church is an attempt to tell you in a kind way - Quit being another Zions Camp problem, complaining about your hurt feelings, when you should man up and deal with the Lord and his Imperfect Church.

Or if you can't... leave it like the other "intellectuals" around here and start your own church.

I wasn't requesting advice on what I should do with the relationship I have. I was sharing my experience and soliciting others to share how they view the hierarchy. You're welcome to elaborate on your perspective of relating to the GA's if you would like to contribute to the spirit of the thread.

[Solon]

It's amazing how the "openness of thought" around here applies to only the "questioning disenchanted club". As if no one else can offer an opinion that differs from the standard Que.

There's plenty of "openness of thought." Your comment seemed to me deliberately provocative. You shouldn't be too surprised that it provoked.

Nobody's telling you to change your opinion. They're telling you not to be such an ass when you express it.

Or if you can't... leave it like the other "intellectuals" around here and start your own church.

Danimal, don't forget to invite the "gays" and the "feminists" to join your church too.

[scottie]

There's plenty of "openness of thought." Your comment seemed to me deliberately provocative. You shouldn't be too surprised that it provoked.

Nobody's telling you to change your opinion. They're telling you not to be such an ass when you express it.



Danimal, don't forget to invite the "gays" and the "feminists" to join your church too.

[Tick's wife]

It's amazing how the "openness of thought" around here applies to only the "questioning disenchanted club". As if no one else can offer an opinion that differs from the standard Que.

Here's the intent of "You're always free to start your own church."

The premise starts with the assumption that the LDS Church is the True and Living Church upon the earth. Since (imo) it is - your choice of complaining about the leadership, and about "your relationship" with mean spirited GA's is misplaced on the priority chart . What good does it do for you to value a relationship with a hired man when your relationship is supposed to be with the Savior Jesus Christ.

So... You're always free to start your own church is an attempt to tell you in a kind way - Quit being another Zions Camp problem, complaining about your hurt feelings, when you should man up and deal with the Lord and his Imperfect Church.

Or if you can't... leave it like the other "intellectuals" around here and start your own church.

Leave Danimal alone....he's a good guy....and if the Church is The True Church, then its suppose to be Perfect, at least that is what pple preach and the GA and pple in the church preach that if you aren't a member you are of a lesser person....BS....God loves us all....

[Portland Ute]

It's amazing how the "openness of thought" around here applies to only the "questioning disenchanted club". As if no one else can offer an opinion that differs from the standard Que.

Here's the intent of "You're always free to start your own church."

The premise starts with the assumption that the LDS Church is the True and Living Church upon the earth. Since (imo) it is - your choice of complaining about the leadership, and about "your relationship" with mean spirited GA's is misplaced on the priority chart . What good does it do for you to value a relationship with a hired man when your relationship is supposed to be with the Savior Jesus Christ.

So... You're always free to start your own church is an attempt to tell you in a kind way - Quit being another Zions Camp problem, complaining about your hurt feelings, when you should man up and deal with the Lord and his Imperfect Church.

Or if you can't... leave it like the other "intellectuals" around here and start your own church.

Look, nobody has a problem with you being a defender of the faith. It has to do with you being an ass. There are other ardent defenders of the orthodoxy, but they aren't asses. LA Ute comes to mind.

You're just a dick to people. That's why people react to you the way they do.

Don't get the reaction to your persona mixed up with the reaction to your beliefs.

[ERCougar]

Danimal, don't forget to invite the "gays" and the "feminists" to join your church too.

hehehe....

[Moliere]

if the Church is The True Church, then its suppose to be Perfect, at least that is what pple preach and the GA and pple in the church preach that if you aren't a member you are of a lesser person....BS....God loves us all....

Where do people hear stuff like this? It can't be a Utah thing since I lived there for a long time and never heard it. It's not mentioned in Texas either. Maybe it's only in California that people actually say and believe this.

[DU Ute]

Where do people hear stuff like this? It can't be a Utah thing since I lived there for a long time and never heard it. It's not mentioned in Texas either. Maybe it's only in California that people actually say and believe this.

I think attitudes like those expressed by clacksmas perpetuate this kind of stuff even though people might not come out and overtly express it.

[PaloAltoCougar]

You would be shocked, I think, to know how active they are.

I've mentioned this story before, I think, that came from a close friend (Franz) from my mission is a German with excellent English skills. He has been employed by a couple of major U.S. corporations to help manage European operations. Several years ago, while serving as an Area Authority in Central Europe, he was asked to set up and manage President Hinckley's itinerary for an upcoming trip to Germany and Switzerland. Pres. Hinckley's admin sent him the proposed schedule and Franz called immediately and said there must be a mistake, as the schedule was too demanding, incorporating far more meetings, travel and tasks than he thought possible and, per Franz, roughly twice what U.S. execs half the Prophet's age would try to accomplish on trips to the continent (which Franz had helped schedule and manage as part of his occupation). The admin assured Franz that the schedule was fine.

On the first morning of Pres. Hinckley's trip, Franz was seated on the stand in the local chapel awaiting the Prophet's arrival. As President Hinckley entered the chapel, walking slowly and unsteadily with the assistance of a cane, Franz's first thought was (and I quote): "Oh my Lord, I've killed the Prophet!", thinking there was no way President Hinckley could endure the schedule that was set for him over the ensuing days. But when President Hinckley stood at the pulpit, Franz said the transformation in Hinckley's posture, speaking voice and overall bearing was incredible, even electric. After the Prophet's talk, however, he relaxed and went back to being rather feeble. This was repeated throughout the trip.

I don't envision a Chippendale's-type calendar of buff geriatric GA's, but there's no question that most possess an uncommon vitality for their ages.

[Indy Coug]

A lot of this thread reminds me of why I tell myself I'm not going to read this forum around General Conference time. Back in a few days or so.

[scottie]

A lot of this thread reminds me of why I tell myself I'm not going to read this forum around General Conference time. Back in a few days or so.

Huh? It's no different than a regular day/thread on CUF.

[All-American]

Huh? It's no different than a regular day/thread on CUF.

Exactly.