Limits of Science, and Moral Choices

[tooblue]

You should come hang out in a few good labs for a few months, and then you'd realize that your lack of trust is unfounded + irrational.

I don't suffer from a lack of trust therefore your insinuation is unfounded + irrational. Maybe you should hang out with me in a few good exhibits, art presentations or artists talks and then you'd realize that your method of thinking is monochromatic and merely one of an infinite variety of ways of thinking about the Universe, the world, life and it's myriad of relationships.

[tooblue]

Do individuals sometimes make mistakes in science? Absolutely. Are some scientists unreasonably biased? Yes. But bad science doesn't survive the test of time.

There are plenty of bad papers, poor experiments, and mistakes. However, I think our system is the best thing we could have, and in the end, personal bias and mistakes never win. People who publish bad papers or results that can't be verified usually have short careers because they were barking up the wrong tree or just plain bad at their jobs.

There are certainly bad artists, bad art and ridiculous artist theories. It could be argued that most art is ridiculous. However, there is art that transcends time and profoundly affects people. Art that raises questions never before considered and compels people to think differently about aspects of the human condition previously presumed a mystery.

[SoonerCoug]

I don't suffer from a lack of trust therefore your insinuation is unfounded + irrational. Maybe you should hang out with me in a few good exhibits, art presentations or artists talks and then you'd realize that your method of thinking is monochromatic and merely one of an infinite variety of ways of thinking about the Universe, the world, life and it's myriad of relationships.

You're right. Not everyone cares about facts. I just think your comparison isn't very good.

A better comparison would be to consider science to be something like naming the colors on a color field painting. No one is going to dispute whether a color field painting is yellow and blue. A lot of the most important science is like color field painting. There just isn't a good reason to dispute or think there could be an agenda because you can see it with your own eyes, and others can independently do the same. It's not a matter of opinion. You may dislike the art, but nothing can change the fact that it's yellow.

[RobinFinderson]

I don't suffer from a lack of trust therefore your insinuation is unfounded + irrational. Maybe you should hang out with me in a few good exhibits, art presentations or artists talks and then you'd realize that your method of thinking is monochromatic and merely one of an infinite variety of ways of thinking about the Universe, the world, life and it's myriad of relationships.

It sure sounds like you have an interesting way of thinking about the Universe. I hope that some day you find a way of helping folks like me to be able to understand what you are talking about.

[tooblue]

You're right. Not everyone cares about facts. I just think your comparison isn't very good.

A better comparison would be to consider science to be something like naming the colors on a color field painting. No one is going to dispute whether a color field painting it yellow and blue. A lot of the most important science is like color field painting. There just isn't a good reason to dispute or think there could be an agenda because you can see it with your own eyes, and others can independently do the same. It's not a matter of opinion. You may dislike the art, but nothing can change the fact that it's yellow.

I care as deeply about facts as you do. Would it be such a bad thing to step outside the neatly manicured lines of reason of your world and start to consider yellow as more than a hue? You might discover that to some it means cowardice, or to others it means proceed with caution. In other words it is not only a colour but a metaphor, and an indicator.

[tooblue]

It sure sounds like you have an interesting way of thinking about the Universe. I hope that some day you find a way of helping folks like me to be able to understand what you are talking about.

I invite you to go and pick the fruit and not merely wait around for me to give it to you.

[RobinFinderson]

I invite you to go and pick the fruit and not merely wait around for me to give it to you.

I've sampled it. It required a lot of work, climbing to the highest parts of the tree. The flavor was interesting, but not worth the effort to climb the tree. Let me know when you open up a fruit stand.

[tooblue]

I've sampled it. It required a lot of work, climbing to the highest parts of the tree. The flavor was interesting, but not worth the effort to climb the tree. Let me know when you open up a fruit stand.

Maybe you were already at the top of the tree and had to climb down to the base where you picked up rotting fruit fallen from the tree and mushed in the ground? Maybe that interesting flavor was actually an adverse effect of the fermentation of old spoiled nectar?

I have no interest and never will open a fruit stand.

[tooblue]

I told her about this thread and the interest in having her post. She said, a friend was bugging her about updating her blog because she hasn't posted much for a while. She cares for our young children and the household. So, she doesn't have much time as it is. but I know she likes these sorts of discussions. She said, "Maybe," and "send me a link." So, I'll send her the link, but I can't promise anything. If she does post, please treat her very respectfully.

A word of caution. The sudden interest in this thread by a very distinct group of posters is likely not by happenstance. Your subject amuses this particular group that feels they possess a superior intellect. It's a type of message board gang mentality. It's clear they have already summarily decided that you and your wife are no match for their collective brain power and that they could easily dismantle your postulations with a wit and sophistication never before seen on the World Wide Web. It's a ploy, a ruse, a game. They likely have talked about all this in private.

[SoonerCoug]

A word of caution. The sudden interest in this thread by a very distinct group of posters is likely not by happenstance. Your subject amuses this particular group that feels they possess a superior intellect. It's a type of message board gang mentality. It's clear they have already summarily decided that you and your wife are no match for their collective brain power and that they could easily dismantle your postulations with a wit and sophistication never before seen on the World Wide Web. It's a ploy, a ruse, a game. They likely have talked about all this in private.

Once again, BS. It's not about intellect. It's about facts. Let's debate the issue itself. Let's talk about papers and data instead of nebulous philosophy. I will discuss anything if anyone is willing to provide some evidence or something to back up their philosophy. If you want to question evolution by natural selection, then you need to explain the origin of diverse organisms and fossils some other way. You need to present a reasonable alternative explanation for the evidence if you want people to take you seriously.

[wuapinmon]

A word of caution. The sudden interest in this thread by a very distinct group of posters is likely not by happenstance. Your subject amuses this particular group that feels they possess a superior intellect. It's a type of message board gang mentality. It's clear they have already summarily decided that you and your wife are no match for their collective brain power and that they could easily dismantle your postulations with a wit and sophistication never before seen on the World Wide Web. It's a ploy, a ruse, a game. They likely have talked about all this in private.

Hardly. woot and I usually don't agree about ANYTHING. In fact, we've traded quite vicious attacks before.

As to my requests, they were sincere. However, I do have a Humanities Agenda, and my goal is to fuse science and humanities together in a battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons.

As to the "distinct group," well, we're the ones who will respond to these questions because we enjoy these types of debates. If you don't want to debate on the internet, don't fault others who do.

tooblue, man, you are an odd duck.

[tooblue]

Once again, BS. It's not about intellect. It's about facts. Let's debate the issue itself. Let's talk about papers and data instead of nebulous philosophy. I will discuss anything if anyone is willing to provide some evidence or something to back up their philosophy. If you want to question evolution by natural selection, then you need to explain the origin of diverse organisms and fossils some other way. You need to present a reasonable alternative explanation for the evidence if you want people to take you seriously.

I'm not questioning evolution sooner? Your comments here are misplaced. Our exchange was about education, trust and I have offered a philosophical suggestion on how scientist can help eliminate ignorance.



Furthermore is it not a fact that:

• The hue Yellow is a colour?
  
• Yellow can be used as a metaphor for cowardice?
  
• Yellow can be used as an indicator of caution?

[SoonerCoug]

Furthermore is it not a fact that:

• The hue Yellow is a colour?
  
• Yellow can be used as a metaphor for cowardice?
  
• Yellow can be used as an indicator of caution?

What the heck are you talking about?

[tooblue]

Hardly. woot and I usually don't agree about ANYTHING. In fact, we've traded quite vicious attacks before.

As to my requests, they were sincere. However, I do have a Humanities Agenda, and my goal is to fuse science and humanities together in a battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons.

As to the "distinct group," well, we're the ones who will respond to these questions because we enjoy these types of debates. If you don't want to debate on the internet, don't fault others who do.

tooblue, man, you are an odd duck.

I'm not faulting anyone -- evidence suggests I like the debates a lot.

I take your odd duck comment as a compliment -- thank you.

[tooblue]

What the heck are you talking about?

Please point out one post in this thread where I questioned evolution? Please point out what in the bulleted points above is not a fact.