The Church advises walking away from your house if you're underwater

[RobinFinderson]

I'm interested in why you think this. I think that someone who takes a conservative approach like this is much less likely to be involved in scams. The typical scam victim, in my limited experience, is someone who is willing to try anything, or who believes in the get rich quick philosophy.

If the relationship between a scam artist and his mark can be thought of as a kind of mental combat, then a mark's moral compass makes her susceptible to guilt trips. The scam artist has no moral compass, so he has a leg up on the mark.

Scams are perpetrated against all kinds of people, and not just folks who want to quickly get something for nothing (though that kind of greed makes some people especially susceptible to scamming). In the case of the real estate bubble, many of the loan products on the market were tantamount to legal scams. The lenders made terrible choices because they knew they could easily unload their loans onto stupid investors who thought that a AAA credit rating actually meant something.

[Portland Ute]

Even that is tricky. I have watched my FIL hand over at least $50,000 to his son over the last 10 years in an attempt to help better his position, and has not seen one dime paid back.

There is an old adage, if I recall, that is along the lines of "You don't loan money to friends and family, you give it to them."

[Medfordcoug]

There is an old adage, if I recall, that is along the lines of "You don't loan money to friends and family, you give it to them."

I learned that the hard way after lending my SIL money for a car. Now, when a sibling or child asks for money I assume I will never see it again.

[wuapinmon]

The answer to your question is no/0 dollars. The entire concept behind a 1st and 2nd is that the 2nd doesn't get a dime until the 1st is paid in full (bankruptcy can mess with that a little as a practical matter, but the principle is still the same).

Gracias, nicuMON!

[myboynoah]

See above. Don't start hucking rocks at people just yet, I'm sure you have something like this that you'd want ecclesiastical advice about.

Well, I'll certainly never say never, but my honest view has been that while I'll/we'll give consideration to The Church's guidance, the ultimate decision is mine/ours. This issue is so personal and unique to each individual situation that I have a hard time seeing how general ecclesiastical advice is useful. Sadly I suspect that in many cases it may well have negative effects.

[Jarid in Cedar]

See above. Don't start hucking rocks at people just yet, I'm sure you have something like this that you'd want ecclesiastical advice about.

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The operative word in your sentence is "advice".

[Viking]

But, we have to remember the profound power that the old question "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowman?" has on people because one bishop might say you're not if you walk away and another might not bat an eye.



See above. Don't start hucking rocks at people just yet, I'm sure you have something like this that you'd want ecclesiastical advice about.



That would be a very difficult thing to accept. What collateral do you have as the holder of the 2nd mortgage?



I agree. My parents have been <redacted> over by Mormons in an endless stream since they joined the Church. My mom's partners are all, but one, right now, LDS. I trust these guys, but previous Mormons have not done them right always. I'm conflicted about it.



Shut up. Seriously. STFU.



$650k in Lehi?



Why would you not pay tithing? Do you deduct your mortgage from your increase? I'm not sure that would be okay for me and my house.



I don't know if the Lord's promise includes helping us make mortgage payments on houses that we foolishly bought that we cannot afford, or that aren't worth what we paid for them.

Really? So if someone has the ability to pay but because they made a poor buying decision it's ok to renege on their obligations?

Something tells me you have misunderstood my premise.

I understand hardship. Our family had to hand back the keys to the house where I grew up in 1992 so they could move in with my grandma for a year or so, only to then move into a ratty ass condo for a few years while my dad tried to get back on his feet professionally. So I have nothing but empathy for the person who finds him/herself upon hard times and has no other choice but to hand 'em back to the bank.

What was so galling about what I wrote, Wuap?

[wuapinmon]

Really? So if someone has the ability to pay but because they made a poor buying decision it's ok to renege on their obligations?

Something tells me you have misunderstood my premise.

I understand hardship. Our family had to hand back the keys to the house where I grew up in 1992 so they could move in with my grandma for a year or so, only to then move into a ratty ass condo for a few years while my dad tried to get back on his feet professionally. So I have nothing but empathy for the person who finds him/herself upon hard times and has no other choice but to hand 'em back to the bank.

What was so galling about what I wrote, Wuap?

No, it's not ok, but it is legal. That's the beauty of American bankruptcy. If you make a bad, a really bad, decision, you're not paying for that mistake for the rest of your life.

Oh, and BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO for using 'galling.' If you only knew how bad I was hurting right now.

[Viking]

No, it's not ok, but it is legal. That's the beauty of American bankruptcy. If you make a bad, a really bad, decision, you're not paying for that mistake for the rest of your life.

Oh, and BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO for using 'galling.' If you only knew how bad I was hurting right now.

That was low. Hope you feel better and glad you're not dead.

[I.J. Reilly]

Inveja rears its ugly head?

I hope you're not referring to me. I had absolutely no part of the CDO/CLO market, selling them, buying them, shorting them, buying CDS, selling CDS or otherwise fucking the American public. Go talk to Lloyd "God's Work" Blankfein about that. I lost money in 2008.

Jealous? I think you might have misread my post.

And as far as referring to you, well, I guess only you can say if I was referring to you or not. Most likely, though, I was referring to a lot of your buddies, especially if you still maintain contacts with any of your old trading partners at Morgan Stanley or had any friends at Lehman Brothers or any contacts at Bear Sterns or any relationships with those at Goldman or any acquaintances in the S&P ratings department or...well, you get what I'm trying to say.

However, the point of my post was not a personal attack on you. My point was to note that there existed two sides to the coin, and you seem to only want to kick out one. One might even argue that it was a supply and demand issue, with your buddies being the demand. As we all know, supply will always follow demand (which is why the US will never win the war on drugs) and would make your esteemed colleagues the bigger problem and probably more worthy of being kicked out.

[ERCougar]

Here's one for you all to chew on...

A friend of mine lives in a fairly small town within an hour of SLC. They bought more house than they really could comfortably afford but have still been able to cover their payments. His wife is from St George, and has wanted to move down there since they were married, so every time they visit, he puts out feelers for jobs. One lead turned into a semi-offer so they decided to list their house to test the waters. Problem is, when his boss saw the sign up (she had no idea he was looking), she became concerned that he would take clients with him (he has a non-compete) and essentially escorted him out of the office. He's left with no job and he's about 100K underwater on his house.

He is now intentionally defaulting on his mortgage so that the bank has an incentive to accept a short sale offer.

I'm not sure how you can consider a default, particularly an intentional one, anything BUT stealing or lying, but I think there are cases of financial distress where stealing or lying is justified. Is this one of them? On the one hand, he's in a small town where he can't find other employment without moving. On the other hand, I suspect that he wanted to move all along.

[byu71]

Here's one for you all to chew on...

A friend of mine lives in a fairly small town within an hour of SLC. They bought more house than they really could comfortably afford but have still been able to cover their payments. His wife is from St George, and has wanted to move down there since they were married, so every time they visit, he puts out feelers for jobs. One lead turned into a semi-offer so they decided to list their house to test the waters. Problem is, when his boss saw the sign up (she had no idea he was looking), she became concerned that he would take clients with him (he has a non-compete) and essentially escorted him out of the office. He's left with no job and he's about 100K underwater on his house.

He is now intentionally defaulting on his mortgage so that the bank has an incentive to accept a short sale offer.

I'm not sure how you can consider a default, particularly an intentional one, anything BUT stealing or lying, but I think there are cases of financial distress where stealing or lying is justified. Is this one of them? On the one hand, he's in a small town where he can't find other employment without moving. On the other hand, I suspect that he wanted to move all along.

There are definitely situations where walking away is financially sound and ethically sound, IMHO. In this whole conversation my objection was to making a general statement from a pulpit with the risk of people thinking God had spoken.

Reminds me of when I was first in the business. I was talking to a guy about buying a Utah Power and Light Preferred. He said he thought it was a good deal, but had to run it by his Bishop. I didn't call him back. Decided early I didn't want to deal with people who make decisions like that.

[pellegrino]

There are definitely situations where walking away is financially sound and ethically sound, IMHO. In this whole conversation my objection was to making a general statement from a pulpit with the risk of people thinking God had spoken.

Reminds me of when I was first in the business. I was talking to a guy about buying a Utah Power and Light Preferred. He said he thought it was a good deal, but had to run it by his Bishop. I didn't call him back. Decided early I didn't want to deal with people who make decisions like that.

Some have crystal balls, others tarot cards and Ouija boards, and yet others go run to their bishops.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Here's one for you all to chew on...

A friend of mine lives in a fairly small town within an hour of SLC. They bought more house than they really could comfortably afford but have still been able to cover their payments. His wife is from St George, and has wanted to move down there since they were married, so every time they visit, he puts out feelers for jobs. One lead turned into a semi-offer so they decided to list their house to test the waters. Problem is, when his boss saw the sign up (she had no idea he was looking), she became concerned that he would take clients with him (he has a non-compete) and essentially escorted him out of the office. He's left with no job and he's about 100K underwater on his house.

He is now intentionally defaulting on his mortgage so that the bank has an incentive to accept a short sale offer.

I'm not sure how you can consider a default, particularly an intentional one, anything BUT stealing or lying, but I think there are cases of financial distress where stealing or lying is justified. Is this one of them? On the one hand, he's in a small town where he can't find other employment without moving. On the other hand, I suspect that he wanted to move all along.

ahh. It is refreshing to see your resolve melting. A post here, a post there, no harm done. But each time it reveals your true desire to throw off the shackles of "a normal life with normal friends". Soon you will be on an all night rampage posting in every thread, railing online about pseudo seizures, newtonian physics, or how Utah just was lucky against TCU in 2008. When it happens, we will welcome to back to belly up to the bar and enjoy a tankard of CUF's best swill.

We will be waiting.....

[byu71]

Some have crystal balls, others tarot cards and Ouija boards, and yet others go run to their bishops.

To tell you the truth, I would rather deal with a guy who runs to his Bishop over some guy who consults his crystal balls.