Homosexuality VS. Incest

[SeattleUte]

This is something I brought up yesterday with the youth in the class. My daughter was getting upset with me that I didn't have a huge issue with what Lot and his daughter did.

So...we started a little geneology tree on the chalk board. We started with Adam and Eve. Then we went down to Able and Cain and obviously two sisters.

We then married the two sisters to....Able and Cain.

It all started out incestually.

Kids had the "deer in the headlights" look. Could have blown a few of them over with a feather.

My daughter said..."Well...Lot is still gross because of what he did." And I responded with "Lot isn't the one who did wrong. His daughters got him drunk and took advantage of him. Once again...the girls caused the problem."

The boys all cracked up. My daughter was burning a hole through my forehead with her eyes.

I agree with Rosebud that this is an awful story. A grown man should not be having a casual discussion about sex with teenage girls. PERIOD. Not to mention the sickening ignorance of teaching youth that this is literally how humans came to be. The whole scene is very trashy. I don't care what anyone was "thinking." But yes, Tick himself described that the girls were alarmed.

[The_Tick]

I agree with Rosebud that this is an awful story. A grown man should not be having a casual discussion about sex with teenage girls. PERIOD. Not to mention the sickening ignorance of teaching youth that this is literally how humans came to be. The whole scene is very trashy. I don't care what anyone was "thinking." But yes, Tick himself described that the girls were alarmed.

Aw snap. Now you don't like me.

It wasn't a casual discussion.

I sure hope you don't send your kids to public school.

[SeattleUte]

Well, that's just it. Regardless of your tired old stereotype, most Mormons are comfortable with the idea that the creation account is not literal (admittedly with various interpretations of "literal"). But for some reason they stress about the details in the rest of Genesis.

Mormons are the world's leading creationists. They just are; if you don't recongnize that you're deluded. Literal belief in those old fables is everywhere to be seen, invoked by the "seers" in conference, by rank and file members in church meetings, in JS's sayings including the D&C, etc. We've even had some very smart and educated people here say things like all Arabs descended from Ishmael without immediately recognizing what nonsense they were spouting. I'm sure this happens all the time in LDS Sunday classes. I could never attend those classes because I would just plain lose it at everyone every Sunday and become totally reviled (it's ironic I'm saying this here, yes).

[SeattleUte]

Aw snap. Now you don't like me.

It wasn't a casual discussion.

I sure hope you don't send your kids to public school.

I don't dislike you. You exercised bad judgment; I wish I could say this will pass but I'm sure more than one of those girls will have an unpleasant memory of that exchange forever. I'm being sharp because I think Rosebud isn't making herself clear enough and people are unfairly dealing with her. Your judgment sucked, and I'm disappointed in KL and 3D for not recognizing it.

You know, I hope it was a casual conversation and you weren't teaching that prurient drivel as if with some official sanction. This is part of the problem of the co-op model for churches.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Mormons are the world's leading creationists.

You don't get out much.

[The_Tick]

I don't dislike you. You exercised bad judgment; I wish I could say this will pass but I'm sure more than one of those girls will have an unpleasant memory of that exchange forever. I'm being sharp because I think Rosebud isn't making herself clear enough and people are unfairly dealing with her. Your judgment sucked, and I'm disappointed in KL and 3D for not recognizing it.

You know, I hope it was a casual conversation and you weren't teaching that prurient drivel as if with some official sanction. This is part of the problem of the co-op model for churches.

Not casual at all.

I didn't exercise bad judgement. Again...the youth brought it up. Not I. I wasn't going to not answer the question.

But please...hitch your cart to Rosebud.

No matter how this ends...I like you because you shop at Whole Foods. I wish we had one.

[SeattleUte]

Not casual at all.

I didn't exercise bad judgement. Again...the youth brought it up. Not I. I wasn't going to not answer the question.

But please...hitch your cart to Rosebud.

No matter how this ends...I like you because you shop at Whole Foods. I wish we had one.

I've said all I need to say about this. It's too bad that Mormons teachings lead to such questions. The answer is these are just stories; they are strange in some ways because they're very old.

Lebowski, here's evidence that LDS youth are being taught to believe in cereationism. Youth are so confused by Genesis being taught as history that they ask these questions.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've said all I need to say about this. It's too bad that Mormons teachings lead to such questions. The answer is these are just stories; they are strange in some ways because they're very old.

Lebowski, here's evidence that LDS youth are being taught to believe in cereationism. Youth are so confused by Genesis being taught as history that they ask these questions.

This is why these discussions with you are so fruitless. I never claimed that LDS youth are never taught creationism.

[The_Tick]

You ignore my comment about Whole Foods?

Sad.

I sent a request in to have a store opened up here, with our population being near 400k, but I haven't heard anything.

Can you pull some strings for me?

[creekster]

I agree with Rosebud that this is an awful story. A grown man should not be having a casual discussion about sex with teenage girls. PERIOD. Not to mention the sickening ignorance of teaching youth that this is literally how humans came to be. The whole scene is very trashy. I don't care what anyone was "thinking." But yes, Tick himself described that the girls were alarmed.

This is so amsuing to me. You, Mr. Enlightenment, are suggesting that Tick should not be discussing the implications of the literal interpetation of the OT, which you have proclaimed one of the great books of literature. Give me a break. He wasn't casually talking about sex, you goof, he was talking about the story of Lot in the OT and the implications of that story and the creation story. Moreover, it was not a random casual discussion, but it was in a class setting. I assume you would agree that any work of literature that invovles sex should simply not be discussed by a male instructor to teenager girls?

[SeattleUte]

This is so amsuing to me. You, Mr. Enlightenment, are suggesting that Tick should not be discussing the implications of the literal interpetation of the OT, which you have proclaimed one of the great books of literature. Give me a break. He wasn't casually talking about sex, you goof, he was talking about the story of Lot in the OT and the implications of that story and the creation story. Moreover, it was not a random casual discussion, but it was in a class setting. I assume you would agree that any work of literature that invovles sex should simply not be discussed by a male instructor to teenager girls?

If he was discussing it as a mythological literary work and not as a work of history I apologize. If he was discussing absurd implications of accepting the Bible in every respect as a crystal clear guide to moral behavior I apologize. Is that what he was doing?

[creekster]

If he was discussing it as a mythological literary work and not as a work of history I apologize. If he was discussing absurd implications of accepting the Bible in every respect as a crystal clear guide to moral behavior I apologize. Is that what he was doing?

You should ask him, not me. OTOH, you and RB seem to think you have his mind figured out, so why bother to ask him? Either way you are so over the top in your criticism that it is simply amusing, not persuasive.

You do realize, of course, that it is these very stories of intrigue and incest and adultery etc. that have formed and guided the very culture you extol? and you do relaize that for the bulk of western history those storeis were taught and realted as literal events? And even though you might whine about the elites who knew differently, you do realize that it was on the backs of the ardent beleivers that the civilation you so cherish was built, right? So my guess is that somehow, some way, your children and RB's children will survive these horrible assaults upon their intellectual lives and will perhaps even be stronger for it, at least if you will take the time to disucss it with them instead of flying into a snit and moaning about how inappropriate it was.

[The_Tick]

I was discussing it as the believable yet unexplainable.

For the record...

I do not believe the Noah's Ark Story to be literal.

I an not sure about Job.

I do not believe Jonah and the whale to be literal either.

I am a cafeteria Latter-Day Saint.

[SeattleUte]

You should ask him, not me. OTOH, you and RB seem to think you have his mind figured out, so why bother to ask him? Either way you are so over the top in your criticism that it is simply amusing, not persuasive.

You do realize, of course, that it is these very stories of intrigue and incest and adultery etc. that have formed and guided the very culture you extol? and you do relaize that for the bulk of western history those storeis were taught and realted as literal events? And even though you might whine about the elites who knew differently, you do realize that it was on the backs of the ardent beleivers that the civilation you so cherish was built, right? So my guess is that somehow, some way, your children and RB's children will survive these horrible assaults upon their intellectual lives and will perhaps even be stronger for it, at least if you will take the time to disucss it with them instead of flying into a snit and moaning about how inappropriate it was.

You do realize that representative government has been the norm for only .00000000000000000000000000000000% of human history, including only less than 1% of known Western history. YOu do realize that slaves were the norm during that time, during which much of our civiliztion and culture took shape. Clearly, we should go back to having kings and slaves!

[SeattleUte]

I was discussing it as the believable yet unexplainable.

For the record...

I do not believe the Noah's Ark Story to be literal.

I an not sure about Job.

I do not believe Jonah and the whale to be literal either.

I am a cafeteria Latter-Day Saint.

I rest my case. Creek, are you chastened?