Homosexuality VS. Incest

[Rosebud]

This is something I brought up yesterday with the youth in the class. My daughter was getting upset with me that I didn't have a huge issue with what Lot and his daughter did.

So...we started a little geneology tree on the chalk board. We started with Adam and Eve. Then we went down to Able and Cain and obviously two sisters.

We then married the two sisters to....Able and Cain.

It all started out incestually.

Kids had the "deer in the headlights" look. Could have blown a few of them over with a feather.

My daughter said..."Well...Lot is still gross because of what he did." And I responded with "Lot isn't the one who did wrong. His daughters got him drunk and took advantage of him. Once again...the girls caused the problem."

The boys all cracked up. My daughter was burning a hole through my forehead with her eyes.

I've got a 'deer in headlights' look going right now, too. Are you serious?

[Tick's wife]

I've got a 'dear in headlights' look going right now, too. Are you serious?

yeah, he is serious. I was there.

[Rosebud]

yeah, he is serious. I was there.

omg(osh).....

[The_Tick]

omg.....

What part are you struggling with?

[Rosebud]

What part are you struggling with?

I hardly know where to begin and I don't really want to chew you out on here tonight. Just don't be one of those teachers who like to wow teenagers with sex topics. They had a deer in headlights look because you crossed a line you shouldn't have crossed. And embarrassing your daughter in front of the boys is not cool. It's funny for you but not for her. I'm not a big correlation supporter, but please follow the stupid manual.

[The_Tick]

I hardly know where to begin and I don't really want to chew you out on here tonight. Just don't be one of those teachers who like to wow teenagers with sex topics. They had a deer in headlights look because you crossed a line you shouldn't have crossed. And embarrassing your daughter in front of the boys is not cool. It's funny for you but not for her. I'm not a big correlation supporter, but please follow the stupid manual.

First off, I didn't embarrass my daughter so don't project.

And go ahead and read lesson 8. The incest is covered in the lesson. The youth brought it up, not the teacher. It was better to cover it once brought up than to brush it under the rug correct?

The dear in the headlights was because they know of the concept of incest and how it relates today. I was discussing with them how it was something that started from the beginning and we don't know why it was acceptable.

So...chew me out. I like it when you are feisty.

[Rosebud]

First off, I didn't embarrass my daughter so don't project.

Then please explain why she was burning a hole through your forehead with her eyes.

And go ahead and read lesson 8. The incest is covered in the lesson.
The youth brought it up, not the teacher. It was better to cover it once brought up than to brush it under the rug correct?
The dear in the headlights was because they know of the concept of incest and how it relates today.

I was discussing with them how it was something that started from the beginning and we don't know why it was acceptable.

So...chew me out. I like it when you are feisty.

Is that part in the manual? I can't believe we take our kids to church to hear this stuff.

[falafel]

So...chew me out. I like it when you are feisty.

[The_Tick]

Then please explain why she was burning a hole through your forehead with her eyes.

Because she kept attempting to place the blame at the feet of Lot. She felt like Lot was the one to blame in the incest happening. The scriptures clearly state that the daughters conspired to get their father drunk to make it happen. The scriptures clearly state that he was so drunk that he didn't know that they arrived or that they left.

Is that part in the manual? I can't believe we take our kids to church to hear this stuff.

Genealogy is part of the Old Testament right? Did I cover anything that isn't in the scriptures? If we started out with 2 parents, then it would logically lead me to believe that A&C had to have married their sisters right? Can you dispute that?

As a parent, if you had a problem with my teaching style I would offer you 2 options:

1. Don't have your kid come to my class.
2. Talk to the Bishop and have him bring me in to discuss it. I would have had the exact same discussion had a parent or member of the bishopric been in the room.

I crossed no lines and did nothing wrong. Give me credit for treating these kids like adults.

You aren't going to want to be around when we cover the deflowering of Delilah.

[RobinFinderson]

Because she kept attempting to place the blame at the feet of Lot. She felt like Lot was the one to blame in the incest happening. The scriptures clearly state that the daughters conspired to get their father drunk to make it happen. The scriptures clearly state that he was so drunk that he didn't know that they arrived or that they left.

This kind of reminds me of that Chris Rock routine about ghetto parents feeling pretty good about their parenting as long as their daughter doesn't end up dancing on the pole. I think it pretty much goes without saying that you have somehow failed as a parent if your daughters think that it is acceptable to come in and have sex with you when you get drunk. Why would they think that? Something is missing from the story. Since scriptures are written from the men's POV, I have to say this 'I was drunk and don't remember anything' line seems pretty fishy.

Genealogy is part of the Old Testament right? Did I cover anything that isn't in the scriptures? If we started out with 2 parents, then it would logically lead me to believe that A&C had to have married their sisters right? Can you dispute that?

As folks have generally come to accept that evolution is a reality, it should go without saying that Adam and Eve and their descendants were not the first of their kind. Perhaps they had some special kind of evolved human consciousness which set them apart from others in their species, but if there is any truth to that story, it isn't going to involve everyone descending from Adam and Eve.

I crossed no lines and did nothing wrong. Give me credit for treating these kids like adults.

You aren't going to want to be around when we cover the deflowering of Delilah.

Just because people did it, I wouldn't say that it was necessarily ok. If it happened in the Bible, or if it happened in the BOM (Laban getting murdered by Nephi), or if it happened in Church history (Joseph sleeping with other men's wives) does not mean that it must have been acceptable. When you teach that those kinds of things used to be acceptable, but now they aren't, and we don't know why, you have just demagnetized the youth's moral compass.

[Rosebud]

Because she kept attempting to place the blame at the feet of Lot. She felt like Lot was the one to blame in the incest happening. The scriptures clearly state that the daughters conspired to get their father drunk to make it happen. The scriptures clearly state that he was so drunk that he didn't know that they arrived or that they left.

So for some strange reason this story disturbed her. (I can't imagine why.) Maybe this would have been a good moment to point out that she doesn't need to take every story she reads in the OT literally and that she doesn't need to think that god is placing blame on women in general just because this story is there.

IOW, try to figure out what her real concerns are and address them. It sounds like you were more interested in using the bible to prove yourself right than you were in helping her understand that she doesn't need to worry about the sexual/sexist implications of Lot and his daughters.

Genealogy is part of the Old Testament right? Did I cover anything that isn't in the scriptures? If we started out with 2 parents, then it would logically lead me to believe that A&C had to have married their sisters right? Can you dispute that?

So was the part about incest being something that happened from the beginning in the manual? Does the manual discuss the discrepancy between what was sexually acceptable during OT times and today?

I wonder how many other SS teaches in the church chose to approach the story this way.

As a parent, if you had a problem with my teaching style I would offer you 2 options:

1. Don't have your kid come to my class.
2. Talk to the Bishop and have him bring me in to discuss it. I would have had the exact same discussion had a parent or member of the bishopric been in the room.

I think you're lying to yourself.

I crossed no lines and did nothing wrong. Give me credit for treating these kids like adults.

You aren't going to want to be around when we cover the deflowering of Delilah.

Sigh. Defending yourself by implying that I'm overprotective is silly. This doesn't have anything to do with treating kids like adults.

[Fiyero]

Tick you're missing the whole point: you had the nerve to infer that when something bad happened, it wasn't a man's fault. Obviously you've been using the King James version not the Nancy Grace version. How could you be so insensitive, you probably didn't even bother to consider the feelings of Potipher's wife when Joseph led her on and ruined her wardrobe.

[Rosebud]

Tick you're missing the whole point: you had the nerve to infer that when something bad happened, it wasn't a man's fault. Obviously you've been using the King James version not the Nancy Grace version. How could you be so insensitive, you probably didn't even bother to consider the feelings of Potipher's wife when Joseph led her on and ruined her wardrobe.

Come now Fiyero, let's not oversimplify. I don't think I'm the one in the room looking to place blame on anyone or any gender in the bible in particular.

It also seems to me that Tick's daughter isn't the only one who feels like her gender is being slighted by bible stories????? Could it be that you gentlemen are just as offended by the thought that god might condemn you for letting your daughters get you drunk and seduce you?

[Indy Coug]

Could it be that you gentlemen are just as offended by the thought that god might condemn you for letting your daughters get you drunk and seduce you?

I don't think it takes much intellectual honesty to take your Divine Retribution like a man if you made that kind of mistake.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It always amazes me when people take OT stories literally. Especially from Genesis.