Homosexuality VS. Incest

[Tick's wife]

So I'm reading the lesson for Sunday School for today. It is lesson 8 - living righteous in a wicked world. Lot, Abraham's nephew, is a gate keeper for Sodom. The Lord tells Abraham that Sodom is wicked and he must destroy Sodom. Abraham wants to know if the Lord would destroy the land even if he finds 50, 40....10 righteous people. The Lord says no. The Lord sends angels to Sodom. Lot recognizes them. The men of Sodom want to 'know' these men, Lot offers his daugthers (yes, I know, JS translation later states that Lot didn't offer his daughters but protected them) but the men want the men.....then the angels are getting ready to destroy Sodom and Gamorahh (sp) and tells Lot and his family to flee....Lot tells his SIL's to which they mock him and don't leave. Lot leaves with his wife and two daughters. His wife looks back and turns to a pillar of salt...Lot flees with his daughters. His daughters get Lot drunk and lay with the old man and get pregnant because they don't want their lineage to decease.

Hmm, incest!

So which is worst? The Lord destroys a city because men may with men but saves another to perform incest? So is polygamy okay too, since incest is okay?

Incest is worst, IMO but I'm sure it's up to debate.

[Indy Coug]

As far as destroying S&G for homosexuality (although I think the reasons are more complicated than that), that was for something that had already happened. At the time of the destruction, incest hadn't occurred.

[Tick's wife]

It's still incest!

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

It's still incest!

If the Adam & Eve, and Noah, and early Book of Mormon stories are to be taken as literal events then one must believe that at times incest is not wrong.

[wuapinmon]

So I'm reading the lesson for Sunday School for today. It is lesson 8 - living righteous in a wicked world. Lot, Abraham's nephew, is a gate keeper for Sodom. The Lord tells Abraham that Sodom is wicked and he must destroy Sodom. Abraham wants to know if the Lord would destroy the land even if he finds 50, 40....10 righteous people. The Lord says no. The Lord sends angels to Sodom. Lot recognizes them. The men of Sodom want to 'know' these men, Lot offers his daugthers (yes, I know, JS translation later states that Lot didn't offer his daughters but protected them) but the men want the men.....then the angels are getting ready to destroy Sodom and Gamorahh (sp) and tells Lot and his family to flee....Lot tells his SIL's to which they mock him and don't leave. Lot leaves with his wife and two daughters. His wife looks back and turns to a pillar of salt...Lot flees with his daughters. His daughters get Lot drunk and lay with the old man and get pregnant because they don't want their lineage to decease.

Hmm, incest!

So which is worst? The Lord destroys a city because men may with men but saves another to perform incest? So is polygamy okay too, since incest is okay?

Incest is worst, IMO but I'm sure it's up to debate.

I forgot to tell you congrats on the kid getting into the Y!

[il Padrino Ute]

I forgot to tell you congrats on the kid getting into the Y!

That you would post this in a thread about homosexuality and incest speaks volumes.

[PaloAltoCougar]

I'll be leading the class discussion on this in just over three hours. I think homosexual practices had little, if anything, to do with Sodom's destruction. In fact, there's little if any condemnation of homosexual behavior in the OT; the blistering condemnations are in the NT. That doesn't mean the OT endorses such practices, of course, but they're not the focus of the OT's wrath.

Although we have a couple of class members who may want to focus on the "gays are going to hell" element (as a bonus for them I'm seriously thinking of mentioning Howard Ruff's comment back in the '80s that "If the Lord doesn't destroy San Francisco he owes an apology to Sodom and Gomorrah"), I'm going to talk more about Ezekiel 16:49-50:

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed aabomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Talking about the evils of homosexual behavior is pointless for most of us. While I really like George Clooney and Hugh Grant, there is pretty much zero chance that I, or most males, will be tempted, much less submit to the temptation, to get to know them better. But pride, fulness of bread, idleness and failure to strengthen those in need... those are a problem, and are the real lessons of Sodom.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Continuing my brief threadjack (sorry, Bro. Tick!), another interesting part of the lesson (and this week's is filled with fascinating themes) is the Abraham vs. Lot dispute, a family fight. Their employees are fighting over land rights in Canaan. Abraham takes the high road and says "Let's divide it half and half, and you, Lot, can take whichever part you want."

One wonders what Abraham would think about how his descendants (the Arabs through Ishmael, and the Jews through Isaac) are handling the unending fight over essentially the same piece of land. Actually, I don't wonder at all.

[The_Tick]

Come teach my lesson PAC. I am struggling with this one.

Having a talk and a lesson on the same week sucks. And my wife and I are "team" teaching...but she wont teach. Boo.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Come teach my lesson PAC. I am struggling with this one.

Having a talk and a lesson on the same week sucks. And my wife and I are "team" teaching...but she wont teach. Boo.

I would love to, although I'd much prefer to meet up again on the first tee and not in a classroom

I doubt I'll even address the incest thing. But if I did, I'd provide my theory that Lot really wasn't particularly admirable at any part in his life's story (he chose to pitch his tent (!) toward Sodom, after all). I think his life was spared because of Abraham's righteousness and petitions, not because of his own.

And you're right, of course; incest is so much worse than a couple of grown-up dudes having their way with each other.

[Tick's wife]

If the Adam & Eve, and Noah, and early Book of Mormon stories are to be taken as literal events then one must believe that at times incest is not wrong.

that's why scriptures are so controversial and we have to interpret as we can and take the good for what it is and throw out the bad.

[I.J. Reilly]

I taught this lesson a few hours ago. I used the Ezekiel scrip that PAC mentions and I spoke about those sins as the basis for Sodom's destruction and how we can avoid them in our lives. I made the executive decision that footnotes were not scripture and sidestepped any addressing of homosexuality, instead just mentioning in passing "sexual sin." The better part of my lesson was actually focused on "pitching a tent" toward Sodom in comparison to the actions of the Nephites who gathered to listen to the words of King Benjamin and how they pitched their tent toward the temple. That turned out to be the theme of the lesson, pitching our tents toward the temple and what that means to us in a practical sense. I wrapped it up with the Ballard quote at the end (choosing to edit out the media fixation). I thought it was a successful lesson. Lots in there that I wish we could have gotten to that I never even touched upon.

In fact, I thought most of church turned out successful with a good ward conference and an actual prepared lesson in elder's quorum.

[pellegrino]

I taught this lesson a few hours ago. I used the Ezekiel scrip that PAC mentions and I spoke about those sins as the basis for Sodom's destruction and how we can avoid them in our lives. I made the executive decision that footnotes were not scripture and sidestepped any addressing of homosexuality, instead just mentioning in passing "sexual sin." The better part of my lesson was actually focused on "pitching a tent" toward Sodom in comparison to the actions of the Nephites who gathered to listen to the words of King Benjamin and how they pitched their tent toward the temple. That turned out to be the theme of the lesson, pitching our tents toward the temple and what that means to us in a practical sense. I wrapped it up with the Ballard quote at the end (choosing to edit out the media fixation). I thought it was a successful lesson. Lots in there that I wish we could have gotten to that I never even touched upon.

In fact, I thought most of church turned out successful with a good ward conference and an actual prepared lesson in elder's quorum.

The same can be said of many a Mormon missionary envisioning their wedding plans.

[I.J. Reilly]

The same can be said of many a Mormon missionary envisioning their wedding plans.

Lol. I knew you could do it. Somebody's gotta hit those softballs.

[pellegrino]

Lol. I knew you could do it. Somebody's gotta hit those softballs.

Looks like a home run for everyone!