Age of Earth

[Moliere]

SU's post was just his way of conceding that you win.

Moses was a mythical figure. He was no more a historical figure than Priam. He is not histocial in the same sense as Alexander the Great.

The Pentateuch is loaded with events we can't credit as really happening, including the age of the earth and the origin of species as described therein. What's our evidence that "Moses" wrote any part of the OT? We take the OT's word for it? There may have been a branch of Judaism that was led out of Egyptian captivity by a great leader that through the oral tradition came to be called Moses (many scholars believe he was probably Egyptian, not Jewish). But the OT, a book with a magic world view that includes such patently mythical events as a Red Sea divided, while a fantastic founding myth, probably surpassing even the Iliad in literary quality, is not a chronicle or a history, and the character Moses in the OT was not a real person. The ancient Hebrews didn't even really have an ethos of empiricism, may not even have understood it. That's a Greek idea, and though we take it for granted, as we see with Mormons even today many people do not appreciate its implications.

I love how Mormons smugly make fun of Evangelicals that for being "biblical literalists," and then just blithely take for granted that Moses--turning the Nile to blood, parting the Red Sea, etc.--was a real person, and that he "wrote the first five books of the bible." That deserves a big lol.

Whatever, I'm still claiming victory!!!

[il Padrino Ute]

Whatever, I'm still claiming victory!!!

Oh, you won. No doubt about that.

In fact, I can say that I know you won.

[RobinFinderson]

I love how Mormons smugly make fun of Evangelicals that for being "biblical literalists," and then just blithely take for granted that Moses--turning the Nile to blood, parting the Red Sea, etc.--was a real person, and that he "wrote the first five books of the bible." That deserves a big lol.

Along similar lines, I've now long felt that it is deliciously ironic when LDS broadly dismiss Catholic accounts of angelic visitations as 'unrealistic,' because every good Mormon knows that angels don't have wings.

Fake:


Real:


Fake:


Real:

[SeattleUte]

Oh, you won. No doubt about that.

In fact, I can say that I know you won.

I know this church is true. With all my heart.

[SeattleUte]

Along similar lines, I've now long felt that it is deliciously ironic when LDS broadly dismiss Catholic accounts of angelic visitations as 'unrealistic,' because every good Mormon knows that angels don't have wings.

Yeah, that's a howler. Of course, arguing about angels' anatomy is a frequently cited example of nonsense on both sides of the debate.

[il Padrino Ute]

I know this church is true. With all my heart.

You're just being facetious.

I never say that I know. I say that I believe. Come to church with me sometime and hear for yourself.

[woot]

I'm well aware of the theory that Moses didn't write it. The rock and chisel was tic and FWIW it would have little of anything to do with the Far Side and everything to do with B.C. comics.

My main issue with your statement was that you implied that you knew how the earth came into existence. Anyone who makes such a claim should never imply that they "know" such a thing because they don't. Sure they have evidence of certain things and can make educated guesses, but to imply that you "know" how the earth came into existence is misleading.

You got me on the BC vs Far Side thing. BC is definitely what I was thinking of. I must take issue with you characterization of how science works, however. When the evidence all points definitively to a particular scenario of how the earth formed, it seems quite misleading to call that scenario an "educated guess", particularly when the alternative is the equivalent of saying that the Wizard of Oz did it.

But, if you insist, I will reword. The strength of the evidence has made it clear beyond any and all reasonable doubt that the earth was formed through natural processes approximately 4.5 billion years ago already in orbit around a recently formed star, without any water being separated by any outside agent. If one is not concerned with reason, however, they may feel free to doubt all they want.

[woot]

Another reason why we know that Moses didn't write the OT is that written Hebrew doesn't seem to have arrived until after Moses was supposed to have lived. The big news out of Near Eastern archaeology lately is that there is an ostracon with writing that looked like it might have been Hebrew dated to about 1050 BC. Debate is ongoing, but it looks like it isn't actually Hebrew, and that the religious folk have jumped the gun yet again. This pushes the known date back into the early first millenium BC.

Moses is supposed to have lived a few hundred years before this, and while it's still marginally possible that something like Hebrew was being written at that time, such a tiny portion of the population would have been able to read it as to make it pointless to write it down. It is very likely that what we now know as the OT was passed on as oral tradition and not written down at all until Iron II and later.

If one really wanted to believe that Moses existed and had a vision, the best strategy would be to assume that he passed along what he saw in the vision orally to his people, it got jumbled up in a several-hundred-year game of telephone, and that's why it bears no resemblance to reality in its current form. Of course since there's no reason to think that Moses existed, that any Jews were ever held captive in Egypt, etc., that's not very firm ground.

[Moliere]

Along similar lines, I've now long felt that it is deliciously ironic when LDS broadly dismiss Catholic accounts of angelic visitations as 'unrealistic,' because every good Mormon knows that angels don't have wings.

I can easily show that mormons believe angels have wings:

• Last year or maybe it was the year prior to that the December Ensign contained a DVD copy of Mr. Kreuger's Christmas
• We all know Jimmy Stewart played Mr. Kreuger in that short story
• Jimmy Stewart also played the central figure in It's A Wonderful Life
• A secondary story in It's a Wonderful Life is the angel's wanting to obtained his wings
• The final words of that movie (or close to the final words outside of the final song) is "Everytime a bell rings, an angel gets its wings"

So if we conclude that the 1st presidency authorized the distribution of Mr. Kreuger's Christmas, it naturally leads us to the church believing in angels with wings.

FYI, this entire post is tic except this hidden part, which is not tic

[CardiacCoug]

Those who oppose biblical teachings seem to live angry, bitter lives and I don't want to be like that.

Funny, it often seems to me that many of those who support biblical teachings seem to live angry, bitter lives and I don't want to be like that.

[grapevine]

Thing is earth stayed the same before Adam took the fruit. There was no aging or decaying so we don't know how long they were in the GArden of Eden were they had to till a weedless earth and play with animals. I wonder if they got bored but had nothing to compare there life too.

Thing is it was the 4thd ay when night and day were divided. EArth was not created out of nothing. There are many things in this Solar System that may create worlds. Some planets may have had people on them in the past in the Solar System too.

In Joseph Fielding McConkies answers to commonly asked questions he said a day may have meant until he got things done. Since htere was no way to divide day and night until third day. He caused the stars to appear. Some stars were already here when the earth was built he caused them to be seen.

Before fall nothing to compare to so day may have been when he got things done. On 7th day he finished his work so may have had some touching up to do then. You can't compare things now t o things before the fall as there is nothing to compare. HOw long were Adam and Eve in the garden. Another hard question because if they spent one day or a 1000 years would be the exact same. FAll caused birth, aging decay and death so we can compare.

[creekster]

Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence that Moses did NOT exist, as opposed to the lack of corroborating evidence that he did? Also, do we know anything about the Hebrews' oral traditions? I know from other readings that many of the south seas cultures (as well as other cultures in the world) have oral traditions that are considered to be as accurate or more accurate in many respects as/than written traditions. (These are not rhetorical questions; I am curious)

[wuapinmon]

The same Joseph Smith who once remarked in a letter that he thought the earth was about 2.5 billion years old.

Do you think he got that number by this problem?

7,000 years on Kolob.......1 Kolob Day = 1,000 Earth Years....365 Kolob Days = 365,000 Earth Years........7,000 Kolob Years x 365,000 Earth Years = (see below)

7,000 Kolob years x 365,000 (365 Kolob Days x 1,000 Earth Years) = 2.55 billion Earth Years

[Harry Tic]

Do you think he got that number by this problem?

7,000 years on Kolob.......1 Kolob Day = 1,000 Earth Years....365 Kolob Days = 365,000 Earth Years........7,000 Kolob Years x 365,000 Earth Years = (see below)

7,000 Kolob years x 365,000 (365 Kolob Days x 1,000 Earth Years) = 2.55 billion Earth Years

Wuap, you deserve a flaming banana daquiri for coming up with that. I had seen that number before but never bothered to work out how he got it. JS was kind of into numerology, I think, or at the very least like to take the received wisdom of the day and put his own spin on it. This would certainly fit the bill.

You and KatyLied should open up your own metaphysical detective agency.

[wuapinmon]

Wuap, you deserve a flaming banana daquiri for coming up with that. I had seen that number before but never bothered to work out how he got it. JS was kind of into numerology, I think, or at the very least like to take the received wisdom of the day and put his own spin on it. This would certainly fit the bill.

You and KatyLied should open up your own metaphysical detective agency.

I would go into business with KatyLied on any project. However, I'd be the slowest ship in the convoy. She's disgustingly brilliant. If I had one complaint about her it's that she quit posting photos she takes.