Yesterday my question in Gospel Doc almost exploded my Stake Prez's head off

[Katy Lied]

I was bored and there was uninspired discussion going on, but honest abe, I really really would not have asked the question had I known the new Stake President (length of tenure: one week) was in the class. Really.

The teacher floated up a big fat opportunity when she asked, "Satan... so... what do you think motivates him?"

Like I said, I couldnt resist. So I asked, "Yeah, what would happen if all of a sudden, Satan decided to pack it all in and go home. No more temptings. Or what if he decided to start tempting people to do the right thing. To choose the righteous way. Wouldn't that throw a bigger spanner in the works of the Plan of Salvation than his temptations to do evil?"

A low murmer spread through the class and about 10 hands shot up. The teacher made the mistake of coming back to me for clarification.

"Well, we've seen how Satan once tried to ruin everything by tempting the woman in the Garden of Eden. Instead, he achieved the exact opposite as he caused the Plan to move forward. I agree that he is the father of evil and lies, but isn't his nefarious actions ummm... necessary for us to be tested?

The brave teacher persisted and asked me if I thought that Satan was necessary. I thought maybe yes. By this time, there were 20 hands raised, and one guy on the other side of the class started answering even tho she hadn't called on him.

In exasperated voice, he said forcefully, "NO, SATAN IS NOT NECESSARY TO THE PLAN OF SALVATION." He continued, "Opposition in all things is necessary, but not Satan." Then he said a little more, but by then I had glimpsed his profile and was speculating the probability that he was the new SP. So I didn't hear much more than that. After he spoke, the teacher pointed at me and said, "There, you have your answer."

When my husband came home from church, some 2 hours after I got home, as he was taking off his tie, he mentioned casually, "I had a nice talk with the stake president about you."

[TripletDaddy]

As recounted here, you question lacks clarity, which is probably why the teacher asked for further clarification from you.

[Katy Lied]

As recounted here, you question lacks clarity, which is probably why the teacher asked for further clarification from you.

Probably.
Plus, I was too chicken to carry my half-formed question to its logical end.

[woot]

I've written elsewhere that Satan is a useless holdover from when we needed a way to explain disease and various biological desires. There's really no need for even the very devout to believe in Satan today.

Of course if satan were anything more than the villain of the fairy tale, he would just turn hell into an eternal party where everyone wants to go. Nothing would destroy the plan of salvation more than that. Satan is definitely participating in the plan of salvation and doing exactly what god wants him to in the official scenario. There's no way around it.

Satan is, perhaps, a bigger logical problem than even god.

[cowboy]

I was bored and there was uninspired discussion going on...

We had a similar question in EQ by someone not nearly as smart as you. My brother was teaching and had a deer in the headlight look, so I came to his rescue with an answer that probably wouldn't have satisfied you, but did the trick for this guy.

My answer was that God, knowing all of us well enough to understand how we will react in every situation, knew that Satan was a big fat liar and that he would rebel against authority and seek to bring people with him. With this knowledge, God then designed the plan to use Satan as a source of opposition and hence a tool to complete the plan.

God loves irony.

[Solon]

Satan is, perhaps, a bigger logical problem than even god.

This is pithy, woot. Nice work.

The development of modern understanding of "the serpent" or "the devil" or "Satan" or "The Adversary" or "Lucifer" is convoluted and riddled with syncretistic elements.

FWIW: http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...=9780521843393

[Fiyero]

I don't think that God's hands were tied while waiting for Lucifer to wander into the garden and tempt A&E into falling. Nothing is too hard for God. There would have been many other options, but we only hear about that one.

If there are hundreds of billions of spirits out there "following" Satan, I highly doubt they would "follow" his sudden choice to choose the right. If Osama bin Laden decided to quit al Qaeda, certainly there would be others anxious to step into his role.

[All-American]

What if Satan's goal is not just to disrupt God's plan, but to acquire as many followers as possible?

[UtahDan]

I was bored and there was uninspired discussion going on, but honest abe, I really really would not have asked the question had I known the new Stake President (length of tenure: one week) was in the class. Really.

The teacher floated up a big fat opportunity when she asked, "Satan... so... what do you think motivates him?"

Like I said, I couldnt resist. So I asked, "Yeah, what would happen if all of a sudden, Satan decided to pack it all in and go home. No more temptings. Or what if he decided to start tempting people to do the right thing. To choose the righteous way. Wouldn't that throw a bigger spanner in the works of the Plan of Salvation than his temptations to do evil?"

A low murmer spread through the class and about 10 hands shot up. The teacher made the mistake of coming back to me for clarification.

"Well, we've seen how Satan once tried to ruin everything by tempting the woman in the Garden of Eden. Instead, he achieved the exact opposite as he caused the Plan to move forward. I agree that he is the father of evil and lies, but isn't his nefarious actions ummm... necessary for us to be tested?

The brave teacher persisted and asked me if I thought that Satan was necessary. I thought maybe yes. By this time, there were 20 hands raised, and one guy on the other side of the class started answering even tho she hadn't called on him.

In exasperated voice, he said forcefully, "NO, SATAN IS NOT NECESSARY TO THE PLAN OF SALVATION." He continued, "Opposition in all things is necessary, but not Satan." Then he said a little more, but by then I had glimpsed his profile and was speculating the probability that he was the new SP. So I didn't hear much more than that. After he spoke, the teacher pointed at me and said, "There, you have your answer."

When my husband came home from church, some 2 hours after I got home, as he was taking off his tie, he mentioned casually, "I had a nice talk with the stake president about you."

You missed the very most important part which was to look at your SP, thank him for the explanation, and ask him to share with you the authority he relies on for that proposition so that you can study it further. That would be the best part because there isn't any that I know of.

I was thinking about this identical think in Gospel Doctrine. What I think, and I believe have even said as a teacher, as that we know Satan wants to frustrate the plan but it is unclear what precisely motivates him to do what he is doing. I don't believe that any being is irrational and, as you pointed out nicely, our current understanding of him makes him appear to be so. He is not. So there is something there we just don't know.

[wuapinmon]

If we're to be tempted and remain faithful, if not Satan, or one of the angels, then who?

If not Judas, then who?

The Problem of Evil is mesmerizing to me. I'm not posting anymore about it though; I've wasted too many hours posting about it only to have people gripe about how long the post was.

[Katy Lied]

God, knowing all of us well enough to understand how we will react in every situation, knew that Satan was a big fat liar and that he would rebel against authority and seek to bring people with him. With this knowledge, God then designed the plan to use Satan as a source of opposition and hence a tool to complete the plan.

God loves irony.

This was one of the logical conclusions to my questioning...

Interesting take on it. So, perhaps, Satan's role is itself an act, and he is a willing participant in God's plan to monitor and try His children. Satan is not the real enemy; perhaps, natural man is the real enemy.

This was another.

If there are hundreds of billions of spirits out there "following" Satan, I highly doubt they would "follow" his sudden choice to choose the right.

This had not occurred to me, yet could explain Satan's very stable role throughout history.

If Osama bin Laden decided to quit al Qaeda, certainly there would be others anxious to step into his role.

This was my husband's thought, also part of what the SP said.

What if Satan's goal is not just to disrupt God's plan, but to acquire as many followers as possible?

Another good speculation I had not thought of.

I don't require an answer; I don't think I am owed one. I think its up to me and my faith. I was surprised, though, how similar my classes reaction was to you folks here on CUF.

I also accept Cowboy's gentle reproof.

[Solon]

You missed the very most important part which was to look at your SP, thank him for the explanation, and ask him to share with you the authority he relies on for that proposition so that you can study it further. That would be the best part because there isn't any that I know of.

I was thinking about this identical think in Gospel Doctrine. What I think, and I believe have even said as a teacher, as that we know Satan wants to frustrate the plan but it is unclear what precisely motivates him to do what he is doing. I don't believe that any being is irrational and, as you pointed out nicely, our current understanding of him makes him appear to be so. He is not. So there is something there we just don't know.

If there is a personage called 'Satan,' everything we know about it comes from a hostile source.

[creekster]

If we're to be tempted and remain faithful, if not Satan, or one of the angels, then who?

If not Judas, then who?

The Problem of Evil is mesmerizing to me. I'm not posting anymore about it though; I've wasted too many hours posting about it only to have people gripe about how long the post was.

Think middle ground.

[wuapinmon]

If there is a personage called 'Satan,' everything we know about it comes from a hostile source.

Have you ever read Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary? It is AWESOME.

http://www.thedevilsdictionary.com/

PREDESTINATION, n. The doctrine that all things occur according to programme. This doctrine should not be confused with that of foreordination, which means that all things are programmed, but does not affirm their occurrence, that being only an implication from other doctrines by which this is entailed. The difference is great enough to have deluged Christendom with ink, to say nothing of the gore. With the distinction of the two doctrines kept well in mind, and a reverent belief in both, one may hope to escape perdition if spared.

FOREORDINATION, n. This looks like an easy word to define, but when I consider that pious and learned theologians have spent long lives in explaining it, and written libraries to explain their explanations; when I remember the nations have been divided and bloody battles caused by the difference between foreordination and predestination, and that millions of treasure have been expended in the effort to prove and disprove its compatibility with freedom of the will and the efficacy of prayer, praise, and a religious life, — recalling these awful facts in the history of the word, I stand appalled before the mighty problem of its signification, abase my spiritual eyes, fearing to contemplate its portentous magnitude, reverently uncover and humbly refer it to His Eminence Cardinal Gibbons and His Grace Bishop Potter.

SELFISH, adj. Devoid of consideration for the selfishness of others.

YOKE, n. An implement, madam, to whose Latin name, jugum, we owe one of the most illuminating words in our language — a word that defines the matrimonial situation with precision, point and poignancy. A thousand apologies for withholding it.

[RC Vikings]

Do you ever get the feeling that CUF is causing havoc throughout the kingdom.