John Dehlin is thinking about bringing Mormon Stories back

[Indy Coug]

On a side note, the term of use in the Church for non-actives is "Jack" Mormon. I am not sure where that comes from,

My understanding is that it was in reference to Jack Dempsey, former heavyweight boxing champion. That said, I'm not going to swear to the veracity of that claim.

[UtahDan]

I'm about 50 minutes into part 1 and I have a question. If Emma and Joseph's kids were so opposed to polygamy, why would they want to continue to participate in or lead a religion that had endorsed it? If they hated polygamy, why would they want to carry on Joseph's legacy/religion/faith/whatever if he was the leader of the polygamist idea?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but Emma raised her children to believe that Joseph never participated in polygamy. One of the reasons we know as much about Joseph's Navou polygamy as we do is that RLDS missionaries came to Salt Lake claiming that polygamy was Brigham's invention which prompted church leaders to secure affidavits from his still living wives.

[Surfah]

My understanding is that it was in reference to Jack Dempsey, former heavyweight boxing champion. That said, I'm not going to swear to the veracity of that claim.

Having served 4 1/2 months of my mission in the very town where he earned his nickname, I can tell you that he popularized the term though I think it's older than that.

[John McClain]

Having served 4 1/2 months of my mission in the very town where he earned his nickname, I can tell you that he popularized the term though I think it's older than that.

The Manassas Mauler? I hope the time you spent there was in the summer and not the winter cause that is one cold place.

[johndehlin]

John, just FYI that we have really good and open Mormon religious discussions here on CougarUteForum (we're not all about sports). I know you're a busy man, but you'd be MVP of The Foyer category here if you started participating.

Hey Scottie,

Any time you want me to join the party, just shoot me the URL. Happy to join in!!!!!

[Surfah]

The Manassas Mauler? I hope the time you spent there was in the summer and not the winter cause that is one cold place.

Oh no. I got transferred there 4 days before Christmas. A San Luis Valley winter is brutal. I have never felt cold like I did there. Not before, and not since. I got to hike Zapata Falls though and see them iced over which was cool. Also got to walk across the Rio Grande when it was iced over. Probably not the smartest thing looking back.

[John McClain]

San Luis valley is a climatological anamoly. It gets so freaking cold there in the winter. I always admired the old Mormon pioneers who stuck it out there. My secretary, as well as my former Stake President, hail from that area. Back in the days when I was young and played basketball it seemed that every year at the regional championships we would run up against a ward from the Alamosa Stake - always a bunch of bruisers.

[wuapinmon]

Hey Scottie,

Any time you want me to join the party, just shoot me the URL. Happy to join in!!!!!

I hope you'll come back. We could use a man like you to elevate our discourse.

[Tim]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but Emma raised her children to believe that Joseph never participated in polygamy. One of the reasons we know as much about Joseph's Navou polygamy as we do is that RLDS missionaries came to Salt Lake claiming that polygamy was Brigham's invention which prompted church leaders to secure affidavits from his still living wives.

You have to wonder, then, why the leaders of the RLDS church would allow their missionaries to go to SLC under the pretense of pinning polygamy on Brigham Young if the very people that could "point fingers" at Brigham Young wouldn't/shouldn't have any problem also pointing fingers at Joseph Smith. Unless, of course, Emma and Joseph III and everyone else leading the RLDS church *genuinely* didn't believe that Joseph had been involved with polygamy. That's unlikely, of course, so I go back to wondering why, if some people in the RLDS church knew the true history, they would willingly allow/encourage their people to go on missions to Utah and have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them once they arrived there.

[UtahDan]

You have to wonder, then, why the leaders of the RLDS church would allow their missionaries to go to SLC under the pretense of pinning polygamy on Brigham Young if the very people that could "point fingers" at Brigham Young wouldn't/shouldn't have any problem also pointing fingers at Joseph Smith. Unless, of course, Emma and Joseph III and everyone else leading the RLDS church *genuinely* didn't believe that Joseph had been involved with polygamy. That's unlikely, of course, so I go back to wondering why, if some people in the RLDS church knew the true history, they would willingly allow/encourage their people to go on missions to Utah and have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them once they arrived there.

I think it was the case that most didn't truly know. Nauvoo polygamy was underground polygamy and the people who knew about it were those who participated in it. It was not practiced in the open and Joseph himself denied it publicly. There was a lot or rumor, speculation, innuendo and denial that surrounded it. I think it is fair to say that the average member of the church today has far, far more access to information about it than any Nauvoo saint not practicing it ever did.

There was significant opposition to polygamy in the early church and numerous leaders when they were brought in on the secret left the church. William Law is one of the best examples (he who then established the Nauvoo Expositor for the purpose of exposing polygamy). So many of those who didn't accept Brigham's claim that there would be no new prophet and that the 12 would govern with him at the head gravitated toward some of the other options who were denouncing polygamy, though of course several of those options either were or ended up practicing polygamy themselves. The point is that the RLDS church, which remember didn't really hit its stride until 1860 which J.S., III was finally old enough to accept the mantle of prophet, vigorously denied that any of it had happened and it appears that most didn't know. It is hard to think that Emma didn't know, but I imagine that on the strength of her denials most people around that church could hang their hat on that.

If you google around you will find essays created recently where people make the case that J.S., Jr. was not involved in polygamy. As we know, the fact of it is something that most LDS have only become acquainted with in recent times as the history began to be done and the evidence became overwhelming. I mean, just look around here and other places and see how some people will deny almost anything if they have an interest in doing so and there is even a plausible ground for doing so (Brigham and MMM is a good example of that, there are many others). They just really didn't want it to be true and no one could "prove" to them that it was. Again, Emma was key.

Sorry for the long explanation, anyone can correct me if I have missed something there but that is my understanding.

[myboynoah]

I like this. I have many friends who are not active and lead lifestyles in conflict with the teachings of the Church, but they still consider themselves Mormon.

Robin I still think of you as Mormon. Accordingly, I also think of SU as Mormon. Though that is mostly because I like to think that makes SU wince.

SU is most assuredly Mormon since his records are still intact (or so we are led to believe). If RF is still Mormon, then I want him to have a calling. There should be some kind of price attached to continued use of the heritage.

[Tim]

I think it was the case that most didn't truly know. Nauvoo polygamy was underground polygamy and the people who knew about it were those who participated in it. It was not practiced in the open and Joseph himself denied it publicly. There was a lot or rumor, speculation, innuendo and denial that surrounded it. I think it is fair to say that the average member of the church today has far, far more access to information about it than any Nauvoo saint not practicing it ever did.

There was significant opposition to polygamy in the early church and numerous leaders when they were brought in on the secret left the church. William Law is one of the best examples (he who then established the Nauvoo Expositor for the purpose of exposing polygamy). So many of those who didn't accept Brigham's claim that there would be no new prophet and that the 12 would govern with him at the head gravitated toward some of the other options who were denouncing polygamy, though of course several of those options either were or ended up practicing polygamy themselves. The point is that the RLDS church, which remember didn't really hit its stride until 1860 which J.S., III was finally old enough to accept the mantle of prophet, vigorously denied that any of it had happened and it appears that most didn't know. It is hard to think that Emma didn't know, but I imagine that on the strength of her denials most people around that church could hang their hat on that.

If you google around you will find essays created recently where people make the case that J.S., Jr. was not involved in polygamy. As we know, the fact of it is something that most LDS have only become acquainted with in recent times as the history began to be done and the evidence became overwhelming. I mean, just look around here and other places and see how some people will deny almost anything if they have an interest in doing so and there is even a plausible ground for doing so (Brigham and MMM is a good example of that, there are many others). They just really didn't want it to be true and no one could "prove" to them that it was. Again, Emma was key.

Sorry for the long explanation, anyone can correct me if I have missed something there but that is my understanding.

That's exactly what I was trying to say, though. Emma knew about polygamy (she HAD to know about it!) and she was involved with the RLDS movement, obviously more as a leading member than any type of authority figure. So when the RLDS leaders began to take missions to Utah to essentially put polygamy onto BY's shoulders, why didn't she stop them (since she knew their message was incorrect)? Was she protecting Joseph? Was she protecting herself? That really takes me back to my first point, which is to wonder how she (or any of the other RLDS leaders who "knew") could let the RLDS missionaries go to Utah KNOWING what they were going to find out once they got there and started talking about it.

It's interesting that one of the goals of the RLDS church in taking missions to Utah was to further disassociate itself from the LDS church and the practice of polygamy, yet it was their missions that eventually led to the mass publicizing of the knowledge about Mormon polygamy, and the public even to this day doesn't care about differentiating between all the branches of Mormonism as much as Mormons do. Their mission to rid themselves of any tie to polygamy only resulted in them being forever included in the bucket of religions involved with the practice.

In summary: Emma knew and she didn't stop them from going on missions to Utah.

[myboynoah]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but Emma raised her children to believe that Joseph never participated in polygamy. One of the reasons we know as much about Joseph's Navou polygamy as we do is that RLDS missionaries came to Salt Lake claiming that polygamy was Brigham's invention which prompted church leaders to secure affidavits from his still living wives.

Oh the irony.

[UtahDan]

In summary: Emma knew and she didn't stop them from going on missions to Utah.

Yeah, you just wonder what she was thinking. Maybe after so many years of telling the lie it became true to her. Funny enough, there is a book about her:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Enigma-Emma-Hale-Smith/dp/0252062914"]Amazon.com: Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith (9780252062919): Linda King Newell, Valeen Tippetts Avery: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YAAC32JXL.@@AMEPARAM@@41YAAC32JXL[/ame]

Interesting title choice.

[Goatnapper'96]

You have to wonder, then, why the leaders of the RLDS church would allow their missionaries to go to SLC under the pretense of pinning polygamy on Brigham Young if the very people that could "point fingers" at Brigham Young wouldn't/shouldn't have any problem also pointing fingers at Joseph Smith. Unless, of course, Emma and Joseph III and everyone else leading the RLDS church *genuinely* didn't believe that Joseph had been involved with polygamy. That's unlikely, of course, so I go back to wondering why, if some people in the RLDS church knew the true history, they would willingly allow/encourage their people to go on missions to Utah and have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them once they arrived there.

Emma knew. If you get the chance read "From Mission to Madness." A biography by Tippets, I think, on David Hyrum Smith, the child Emma was pregnant with when Joseph was martyred. He ended up spending his final years in an institution in Illinois. He went with Joseph III to SLC to reclaim the Brighamites and what he found out really troubled him. I think he still would have had mental issues, but upon his return to Nauvoo he walked up to Emma and said "you lied to us!"

I think Joseph's kids didn't know but obviously some found out.

What I always found really interesting is that Emma taught her children nothing about Joseph's role wrt to the restoration. Perhaps that role has taken on greater significance within the LDS culture than it had then and so my frame of reference is very different than hers. I just found it interesting that he kids knew nothing about the priesthood, the Book of Mormon anything really unique to the LDS faith until Joseph III accepted to be the President of the Reorganized Church.

Of course Emma had a mental breakdown so really we should all ignore her life and existence once Joseph was martyred!