How do you personally spiritually reconcile the following conundrum?

[BlueHair]

Now this is what I'm talking about... black 22 times in a row logic verses Infinite to 1. Your best effort to solve the riddle is to ignore the truth, in order to hold true to your truth, and that is valiant. I especially like when you abandoned your truth, (by action) to castigate another individual (in parcel tongue perhaps) with the insinuation that I'm not a believer because of a possible answer conundrum with evidence other than "a Prophet told me so."

I'm not a believer. How did I abandon my truth? What do you suppose my truth is? I made no commentary on your belief. That aside, there is no conundrum. Mormonism isn't based on facts. There is very little about Mormonism that is provable. I would wager very few believing Mormons care about the odds. They believe because they have a testimony based on feelings or spiritual experiences.

After an event has happened, the odds simply don't matter. It happened. What difference does it make if it's infinite to one or two to one? Odds are only useful for predicting the likelihood of something happening in the future.

Mormons who depend on solving the impossibilities of Mormonism to sustain their belief won't be Mormons very long.

[BlueHair]

huh?

The part I find troubling about the odds question is all of the wasted matter out there. If God's out there, He's awfully inefficient (at least in our dimension ).

I'm with you. The vast majority of the universe is empty space. Everything, even seemingly solid objects are mostly empty space.

[clackamascoug]

I'm not a believer. How did I abandon my truth? What do you suppose my truth is? I made no commentary on your belief. That aside, there is no conundrum. Mormonism isn't based on facts. There is very little about Mormonism that is provable. I would wager very few believing Mormons care about the odds. They believe because they have a testimony based on feelings or spiritual experiences.

After an event has happened, the odds simply don't matter. It happened. What difference does it make if it's infinite to one or two to one? Odds are only useful for predicting the likelihood of something happening in the future.

Mormons who depend on solving the impossibilities of Mormonism to sustain their belief won't be Mormons very long.

Dang... I put out the cheese, and all I got was a lousy tee-shirt. I don't have a problem with non-believers, at least a non believer stays off the home teaching roles. You're right about one thing, I'm a believer because of The Holy Ghost. I've had too many experiences where truth manifested was greater than my infallible ability to explain it.

I guess that's why the whole string theory rings with me... it explains and leaves the door open for what I already hold true.

(sorry for the apparent accelerant on my part - this is my first thread. Just trying to stir the pot so I don't look lame.)

[Borg]

I'm with you. The vast majority of the universe is empty space. Everything, even seemingly solid objects are mostly empty space.

Just an off hand thought....it seems to me that there has to be an awefully lot of space out there between galaxys etc...because, if there wasn't...then the sheer immensity of the galaxy's gravitational pull would bring them crashing into one another.

I love this question.

I have thougth of this very thing...recently. I don't have an answer, but I will ponder this and see how wrong I can be with some thoughts I can drum up. I have often wondered about this.

[Tex]

[youtube]41j2cGOrvQU[/youtube]

[jay santos]

I think the responses here show an unfamiliarity/fear of the subject. I am not a scientific person. I have trouble with simple math, and like Wuap, I see the sands of the sea line as a metaphor. That said, a while back I read an article in Dialogue, written by an LDS scientist that discusses these issues. I didn't understand it beyond a basic level, so I can't critique it, and I don't remember if he was a physicist or not, but the ideas are interesting and it was interesting to see the parallels between Mormon theology and what I understood to be quantum physics. I think the guy's name was Bailey and the Dialogue issue was an old one, pre 1995 for certain. Perhaps I'll find it. It might be a means to add clarity to the discussion, which I feel has merit.

So don't go baggin' on clackymack just because you didn't/can't understand what he's talking about. He's not that far out there, there have been others who have written about this.

I think if bullshit like this takes one second away from discussing actual doctrine (faith, repentance, etc) in church then it's a sad thing. I really can't say this more bluntly. I think people bringing up these issues in church should be shot. OK not shot maybe just tortured. They're bored with the doctrine of Christ and want to make crap up to talk about.

[pellegrino]

I think if bullshit like this takes one second away from discussing actual doctrine (faith, repentance, etc) in church then it's a sad thing. I really can't say this more bluntly. I think people bringing up these issues in church should be shot. OK not shot maybe just tortured. They're bored with the doctrine of Christ and want to make crap up to talk about.

Did anyone mention out making this or bringing it up during a lesson in church? Read clacky's disclaimer.

[clackamascoug]

I think if bullshit like this takes one second away from discussing actual doctrine (faith, repentance, etc) in church then it's a sad thing. I really can't say this more bluntly. I think people bringing up these issues in church should be shot. OK not shot maybe just tortured. They're bored with the doctrine of Christ and want to make crap up to talk about.

I agree Bro. Santos. As a former Gospel Doctrine teacher, I'd shoot down stupid questions and answers with the stock answer "Let's stick to the lesson." On the other hand, Sticking to the lesson plan in your personal life is like riding a bike with training wheels on.

However, beyond basic salvation, (seeing how salvation includes the Telestial Kingdom) you will be required to learn the things of God. The scriptures are very clear that mysteries exist, and that mysteries are good things, not bad things. We are admonished to even learn the mysteries of God. The mysteries will be revealed.

Back to the question. How do you personally reconcile the factual impossibility that the Savior was Crucified on our globe, and no other.

Calling it BS is a cop-out answer. Let's have a thoughtful answer.

[Tex]

Back to the question. How do you personally reconcile the factual impossibility that the Savior was Crucified on our globe, and no other.

I don't understand the question. How again is this a "factual impossibility"?

[jay santos]

I agree Bro. Santos. As a former Gospel Doctrine teacher, I'd shoot down stupid questions and answers with the stock answer "Let's stick to the lesson." On the other hand, Sticking to the lesson plan in your personal life is like riding a bike with training wheels on.

However, beyond basic salvation, (seeing how salvation includes the Telestial Kingdom) you will be required to learn the things of God. The scriptures are very clear that mysteries exist, and that mysteries are good things, not bad things. We are admonished to even learn the mysteries of God. The mysteries will be revealed.

Back to the question. How do you personally reconcile the factual impossibility that the Savior was Crucified on our globe, and no other.

Calling it BS is a cop-out answer. Let's have a thoughtful answer.

My answer:

a. there's a piece of information missing that the human mind can't understand that makes it work logically

or

b. the entire premise is false. There are no worlds without end.

I'm inclined to believe "b", but I'm not losing any sleep over it. Frankly if one throws out any other option such as "quantum mechanics" it's a sign to me that person is an idiot. There's a 0.1% chance the person is a genius, but a 99.9% chance the person's an idiot, and I'll play the percentages.

[clackamascoug]

My answer:

a. there's a piece of information missing that the human mind can't understand that makes it work logically

or

b. the entire premise is false. There are no worlds without end.

I'm inclined to believe "b", but I'm not losing any sleep over it. Frankly if one throws out any other option such as "quantum mechanics" it's a sign to me that person is an idiot. There's a 0.1% chance the person is a genius, but a 99.9% chance the person's an idiot, and I'll play the percentages.

Of course I'm an idiot, that goes without saying, but at least I'm an idiot that is kind and gets along well with others.

So paraphrasing your answer - clackamascoug is 99.9% idiot, and Jesus is a liar. At least Bro. Santos is on record.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/112#112

[jay santos]

Of course I'm an idiot, that goes without saying, but at least I'm an idiot that is kind and gets along well with others.

So paraphrasing your answer - clackamascoug is 99.9% idiot, and Jesus is a liar. At least Bro. Santos is on record.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/76/112#112

99.9% chance you're an idiot. Maybe I should downgrade it to 99%. Just like Jordan, I leave a 1% chance.

I don't think Jesus is a liar. Maybe Sidney Rigdon's the liar, here. I don't know.

[falafel]

Crackmass, what's the foundation for your belief (or assertion) that this world was randomly selected as the site for Christ's atonement? Why could it not have simply been selected? It had to happen somewhere, so what's wrong with believing that God simply chose this earth for whatever reason? Or is that, in fact, your question?

[clackamascoug]

Crackmass, what's the foundation for your belief (or assertion) that this world was randomly selected as the site for Christ's atonement? Why could it not have simply been selected? It had to happen somewhere, so what's wrong with believing that God simply chose this earth for whatever reason? Or is that, in fact, your question?

I never asserted that this Earth was randomly selected. However, I'd be hard pressed to differentiate the odds between randomness, and natural selection. Regardless of the criteria, the odds are incalculable to the point of being an impossible event.

My attempt at a point, is the likelihood that a rational answer to a statical impossibility might be found in science, where we are in the very infancy of understanding sub-atomic particles, and dimensional replication. If readers are not familiar with such information, consider this poor thread as a concept introduction with which details which can be found on line.

Personally, I know in my heart the divinity of Jesus Christ, the calling of Joseph Smith, and the Temple Truths Restored. The reason I know these things is because of the Holy Ghost. I was told to have faith by doing, and I did. For my exercise of faith, I was rewarded with a replacement of faith with knowledge.

Someday I will know the answer to the conundrum, but that doesn't mean I can't ponder its answer today.

[jay santos]

p.s. clackmas, I only mean to say you're an idiot in a most endearing way. Nothing personal.