How do you personally spiritually reconcile the following conundrum?

[clackamascoug]

Disclaimer: The following is for entertainment purposes only. I don't believe the following "ideas" have anything to do with salvation, they are just explorations into things we don't understand, and the mathematics of possibilities. Since there are no conclusions - don't conclude anything.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/1 versus 29-39.

OK- The Lords creations can be basically surmised to be more than the sands of the sea. Every time I/We go to the beach I contemplate this statement, (which I take as fact.) Surface sand I can wrap my brain around, dig down a foot and calculate that, a little harder, but if you were to count every grain of sand on every beach in the entire world, and equate the Lords creations as greater quantity, it blows my mind.

IndyCoug - Gives give us an estimate. (The largeness defies calculability.)

So the question is: How Do You Personally Spiritually Reconcile the following Conundrum?

Of All the Worlds - Why was Jesus Christ Crucified on this particular Globe?

The stock RM answer is that this earth was the most evil. The second stock answer is... don't ask questions that boggle the mind.

Is it possible that the answer is as easy as understanding "Infinite Atonement," by the fact that He lived/died/atoned on all globes of his creation at the same time?

One possible solution is found in Quantum Physics.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum[/ame]

http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/Quantum_mechanics?src=abop&fwd=1&qpvt=quantum+physics&q=quantum+physics

One of the theories of Quantum Physics is the replication of universes based upon thought and action. This carries with it logical infrastructure theories as how the worlds were/are made, and how the savior could be sacrificed in this and all other dimensions - At The Same Time., but leaves some pretty serious baggage in regards to you and me.

If the Savior indeed suffered an Infinite Atonement, we too participate in the Infinite Atonement by existing in infinite worlds at the same time as we exist in this world.

By Quantum Theory, every decision we make has a number of possible outcomes. The theory says that each decision is played out in a different dimension of space. For every person on the planet about a billion decisions are made in a lifetime, If each decision spun off another dimension, and the Lord was architect of the plan, his creations would be limitless, and infinite.

The repercussions for us normal people - are interesting. After death, we would carry the collective information of billions of parallel universes, and have a greater knowledge base upon which to progress in the Celestial Kingdom (considering if our GPA held up). The down side is that we would may be sealed to more than one woman, and our posterity may be hugely more diverse than it is now. - I find that a little disconcerting, especially when women may end up being sealed to more than one man.

Anyway... how do you reconcile limitless earthly globes and only one Atonement, on the most evil of Earths.

Disclaimer No. 2: I'm not a big science buff, and am not as smart as 3/4 of the board participants. I'm sorry if I'm in left field picking daises while the runners are rounding third. Perhaps someone smart could help set me straight.

[Rosebud]

Love your thoughts and question.... I hope a few people try to answer. I can't reconcile anything but maybe I will try to articulate some form of an answer when I find some time later today.

OK- The Lords creations can be basically surmised to be more than the sands of the sea. Every time I/We go to the beach I contemplate this statement, (which I take as fact.) Surface sand I can wrap my brain around, dig down a foot and calculate that, a little harder, but if you were to count every grain of sand on every beach in the entire world, and equate the Lords creations as greater quantity, it blows my mind.

IndyCoug - Gives give us an estimate. (The largeness defies calculability.)

And... what is the probability that one would be born: 1) onto the most wicked world, 2) during its most wicked period, and 3) into Christ's true church? A little math takes Saturday's Warrior to a new dimension.

The down side is that we would may be sealed to more than one woman, and our posterity may be hugely more diverse than it is now. - I find that a little disconcerting, especially when women may end up being sealed to more than one man.

Hey.... it's no worse for women to be sealed to several men than it is for men to be sealed to several women. (Sorry, couldn't help it.)

[wuapinmon]

I view such language as akin to me saying, "I drank a bazillion Coca-Colas during the five years I worked for McDonald's." Somewhere between 1 and 10,000 lies the truth, but unless God exists, there's no way of knowing how many. I call it the:

Argumentum Cocacolalogicum

When God says, "Like the sands in the sea" he's trying to give us a simile of something really vast in number.

[ERCougar]

One of the theories of Quantum Physics is the replication of universes based upon thought and action. This carries with it logical infrastructure theories as how the worlds were/are made, and how the savior could be sacrificed in this and all other dimensions - At The Same Time., but leaves some pretty serious baggage in regards to you and me.

If the Savior indeed suffered an Infinite Atonement, we too participate in the Infinite Atonement by existing in infinite worlds at the same time as we exist in this world.

By Quantum Theory, every decision we make has a number of possible outcomes. The theory says that each decision is played out in a different dimension of space. For every person on the planet about a billion decisions are made in a lifetime, If each decision spun off another dimension, and the Lord was architect of the plan, his creations would be limitless, and infinite.

The repercussions for us normal people - are interesting. After death, we would carry the collective information of billions of parallel universes, and have a greater knowledge base upon which to progress in the Celestial Kingdom (considering if our GPA held up). The down side is that we would may be sealed to more than one woman, and our posterity may be hugely more diverse than it is now. - I find that a little disconcerting, especially when women may end up being sealed to more than one man.

Anyway... how do you reconcile limitless earthly globes and only one Atonement, on the most evil of Earths.

I think you're grossly misunderstanding quantum physics. I don't even know where to start in pointing out where, because there's not much (anything?)that you've written that relates to quantum physics, as I understand it. You might have to lay out your thinking a little more explicitly. "Replication of unverses based on thought and action?" Huh? What does this have to do with quantum physics?

I really must be misunderstanding you.

[jay santos]

Disclaimer: The following is for entertainment purposes only. I don't believe the following "ideas" have anything to do with salvation, they are just explorations into things we don't understand, and the mathematics of possibilities. Since there are no conclusions - don't conclude anything.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moses/1 versus 29-39.

OK- The Lords creations can be basically surmised to be more than the sands of the sea. Every time I/We go to the beach I contemplate this statement, (which I take as fact.) Surface sand I can wrap my brain around, dig down a foot and calculate that, a little harder, but if you were to count every grain of sand on every beach in the entire world, and equate the Lords creations as greater quantity, it blows my mind.

IndyCoug - Gives give us an estimate. (The largeness defies calculability.)

So the question is: How Do You Personally Spiritually Reconcile the following Conundrum?

Of All the Worlds - Why was Jesus Christ Crucified on this particular Globe?

The stock RM answer is that this earth was the most evil. The second stock answer is... don't ask questions that boggle the mind.

Is it possible that the answer is as easy as understanding "Infinite Atonement," by the fact that He lived/died/atoned on all globes of his creation at the same time?

One possible solution is found in Quantum Physics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum

http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/Quantum_mechanics?src=abop&fwd=1&qpvt=quantum+physics&q=quantum+physics

One of the theories of Quantum Physics is the replication of universes based upon thought and action. This carries with it logical infrastructure theories as how the worlds were/are made, and how the savior could be sacrificed in this and all other dimensions - At The Same Time., but leaves some pretty serious baggage in regards to you and me.

If the Savior indeed suffered an Infinite Atonement, we too participate in the Infinite Atonement by existing in infinite worlds at the same time as we exist in this world.

By Quantum Theory, every decision we make has a number of possible outcomes. The theory says that each decision is played out in a different dimension of space. For every person on the planet about a billion decisions are made in a lifetime, If each decision spun off another dimension, and the Lord was architect of the plan, his creations would be limitless, and infinite.

The repercussions for us normal people - are interesting. After death, we would carry the collective information of billions of parallel universes, and have a greater knowledge base upon which to progress in the Celestial Kingdom (considering if our GPA held up). The down side is that we would may be sealed to more than one woman, and our posterity may be hugely more diverse than it is now. - I find that a little disconcerting, especially when women may end up being sealed to more than one man.

Anyway... how do you reconcile limitless earthly globes and only one Atonement, on the most evil of Earths.

Disclaimer No. 2: I'm not a big science buff, and am not as smart as 3/4 of the board participants. I'm sorry if I'm in left field picking daises while the runners are rounding third. Perhaps someone smart could help set me straight.

Thank God I'm not in your high priest quorum.

[Rosebud]

I hate it when people ruin the fun of pointless questions....

[Rosebud]

Are you talking about string theory and M-theory clackamas?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq2pL5ivhAc&feature=related"]YouTube- The Elegant Universe - M Theory (8/11)[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb2vWj6ITGo&feature=related"]YouTube- The Elegant Universe - M Theory (9/11)[/ame]

[clackamascoug]

Yes... except they didn't talk about parallel universes.

[pellegrino]

I think the responses here show an unfamiliarity/fear of the subject. I am not a scientific person. I have trouble with simple math, and like Wuap, I see the sands of the sea line as a metaphor. That said, a while back I read an article in Dialogue, written by an LDS scientist that discusses these issues. I didn't understand it beyond a basic level, so I can't critique it, and I don't remember if he was a physicist or not, but the ideas are interesting and it was interesting to see the parallels between Mormon theology and what I understood to be quantum physics. I think the guy's name was Bailey and the Dialogue issue was an old one, pre 1995 for certain. Perhaps I'll find it. It might be a means to add clarity to the discussion, which I feel has merit.

So don't go baggin' on clackymack just because you didn't/can't understand what he's talking about. He's not that far out there, there have been others who have written about this.

[BlueHair]

I think the responses here show an unfamiliarity/fear of the subject. I am not a scientific person. I have trouble with simple math, and like Wuap, I see the sands of the sea line as a metaphor. That said, a while back I read an article in Dialogue, written by an LDS scientist that discusses these issues. I didn't understand it beyond a basic level, so I can't critique it, and I don't remember if he was a physicist or not, but the ideas are interesting and it was interesting to see the parallels between Mormon theology and what I understood to be quantum physics. I think the guy's name was Bailey and the Dialogue issue was an old one, pre 1995 for certain. Perhaps I'll find it. It might be a means to add clarity to the discussion, which I feel has merit.

So don't go baggin' on clackymack just because you didn't/can't understand what he's talking about. He's not that far out there, there have been others who have written about this.

If this isn't the first cycle of creation/progression, meaning God lived a mortal life before he became God, it would make sense that there are many Gods (assuming God's God created worlds and some of those humans became Gods.) If the universe is basically endless and filled with Gods constantly creating new worlds and new children, it would make sense that there would be more worlds than sands of the sea. Especially given how long all of this creating has been going on. It's like one big pyramid scheme. Even if our God is the only God, but has always been creating, there would be innumerable worlds.

[clackamascoug]

Back to the original question.

How does a logical Latter-Day Saint come to grips that there is a million-bazillion to one chance that the earth we live on is the only place evil enough to kill the Son of God, thus, jump starting the Infinite Atonement that encompasses the whole universe?

I've put forth an attempt at a theory, and like usual (in on line forums) the good people keep quiet, while the rabble rouser's throw tomatoes.

[BlueHair]

Back to the original question.

How does a logical Latter-Day Saint come to grips that there is a million-bazillion to one chance that the earth we live on is the only place evil enough to kill the Son of God, thus, jump starting the Infinite Atonement that encompasses the whole universe?

I've put forth an attempt at a theory, and like usual (in on line forums) the good people keep quiet, while the rabble rouser's throw tomatoes.

It depends from where you are witnessing the long shot event. I saw a roulette wheel hit the same color 22 times in a row. The odds against that happening are astronomical. Yet I saw it happen and told my friends about it. They were surpised, but not as surprised as they would have been if I had predicted it was going to happen and then watched as it come to pass. My point is that it has already happened, so the odds don't matter much. If a person is able to accept that the church is true, why wouldn't they be able to accept that God's chosen prophet is telling the truth about how the whole atonement happened? The hard part is believing in the prophet. If you believe a person is a prophet, then believing what he says is easy. There is no conundrum to a believer.

[clackamascoug]

It depends on from where you are calculating the odds. I saw a roulette wheel hit the same color 22 times in a row. The odds against that happening are astronomical. Yet I saw it happen and told my friends about it. They were surpised, but not as surprised as they would have been if I had predicted it was going to happen and then watched as it come to pass. My point is that it has already happened, so the odds don't matter much. If a person is able to accept that the church is true, why wouldn't they be able to accept that God's chosen prophet is telling the truth about how the whole atonement happened? The hard part is believing in the prophet. If you believe a person is a prophet, then believing what he says is easy. There is no conundrum to a believer.

Now this is what I'm talking about... black 22 times in a row logic verses Infinite to 1. Your best effort to solve the riddle is to ignore the truth, in order to hold true to your truth, and that is valiant. I especially like when you abandoned your truth, (by action) to castigate another individual (in parcel tongue perhaps) with the insinuation that I'm not a believer because of a possible answer conundrum with evidence other than "a Prophet told me so."

[ERCougar]

Back to the original question.

How does a logical Latter-Day Saint come to grips that there is a million-bazillion to one chance that the earth we live on is the only place evil enough to kill the Son of God, thus, jump starting the Infinite Atonement that encompasses the whole universe?

I've put forth an attempt at a theory, and like usual (in on line forums) the good people keep quiet, while the rabble rouser's throw tomatoes.

I'm not throwing tomatoes, but I don't really understand your connection of the two. I think the question you just phrased is an interesting one. I don't find multidimensional polygamy interesting at all.

You have to be careful in interpreting modern physics concepts. Many of them are very tempting to think about in a non-mathematical way and expansive way--we're often talking about the universe and its origins or fundamental make-up, after all. However, it's very easy to get sloppy in doing this and apply concepts far outside their intended use. This happens to relativity all the time.

I like math, I like physics, and I've read a few books on relativity and modern physics, which I find really fascinating. I'm far from an expert in this field, so my bad if you're correctly thinking about these things. I'm just asking you to explain it a little more clearly.

[ERCougar]

Now this is what I'm talking about... black 22 times in a row logic verses Infinite to 1. Your best effort to solve the riddle is to ignore the truth, in order to hold true to your truth, and that is valiant. I especially like when you abandoned your truth, (by action) to castigate another individual (in parcel tongue perhaps) with the insinuation that I'm not a believer because of a possible answer conundrum with evidence other than "a Prophet told me so."

huh?

The part I find troubling about the odds question is all of the wasted matter out there. If God's out there, He's awfully inefficient (at least in our dimension ).