Youth temple recommend requirements

[Rosebud]

So, again, why the need at all then for a mortal life if we can work out our salvation in the eternities? Why create flawed creations on purpose? Would you make one of your children flawed on purpose? It seems counter-intuitive to say that a Heavenly Father would want His creations to have flaws.

Ether 12:27

And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

I know I'm flawed. I have a tons of personal weaknesses. I get sick and hurt. I'm vulnerable to people stronger than me. I will die. Either God created me with weaknesses or he didn't create me. The fact that I have them isn't in question.

One of the interesting things about the Adam and Eve creation story, IMO, is that it argues that God did create Adam and Eve perfectly and that it was the work of evil and/or their own decision to become imperfect. Either way, though, it would be hard to argue that he didn't create us imperfectly and in a dangerous environment while simultaneously arguing that he did create us. If you're going to believe in creation, you have to believe that he created this imperfect environment (which to me includes our physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual limitations).

[thesaint258]

I don't agree with the bolded statement. My kids misbehave right in front of me all the time. Also, Satan and 1/3 of the spirits rebelled right there in front of Him. We were totally able to misbehave right there.

Yeah, I overstated that. I'll rephrase and say that a test with God right there isn't much of a test.

I don't follow what you mean here. It doesn't follow, to me, that God can tolerate some of us doing bad things by having his favorite child get killed by his other ones in a horrific way. I've always been under the impression that he can't "tolerate" pretty much anything.

I think he does tolerate a lot. Every time someone's murdered or abused, he stands by and lets it happen. I get what you're saying, and I think that the Atonement is a complicated thing. I don't understand it all.

Well, that's just using "turtles all the way down" logic, right? At some point, we had to have been created. If the Creator behind our creator wasn't perfect, then that makes sense that we could be flawed, but we've been pinged about God's perfection since Day 1.

Assuming there's a beginning, you're right. I've heard theories that there wasn't a beginning--it's just one eternal round (for the lack of a better phrase). I have no clue how that would work, and I think that if such a thing is even possible, it would be beyond our understanding.

Life cannot come out fairly for everyone, which is why we're left to sit here and wonder because God has been fairly mute on the subject of human suffering.

I agree that life isn't fair, but I do think that when all is said and done, it can somehow be a fair experience. Of course, maybe it can't no matter what kind of existence you have, and it's a natural law that nothing can be completely fair.

[statman]

So, again, why the need at all then for a mortal life if we can work out our salvation in the eternities? Why create flawed creations on purpose? Would you make one of your children flawed on purpose? It seems counter-intuitive to say that a Heavenly Father would want His creations to have flaws.

We need to learn to be like Him. Without flaws there is no progress. Where all is perfect, without going through the process of perfecting itself, nothing is perfect. The atonement is what enables us to become perfect.

[Surfah]

Goose, back to your original question, I honestly don't know. I never knew that it was a requirement either (to be honest a lot of people don't know that males must have the priesthood to go to the temple) until my mission.

We had an awesome family we taught on our mission. The husband was retired Army. Met his wife in Bavaria. They had two great kids in Jr HS. The husband was completely supportive of everything, liked the Church (attended with wife and kids, took pictures at ward functions), but just wasn't going to commit. The wife ended up not being able to be baptized (another story in itself) but her two kids were. A week later the youth did BFTD at the Denver Temple. They both attended and had an amazing experience. However, the young man wasn't ordained yet and they ended up having to redo all of the ordinances that he was a part of. They tried to keep this hush so as not to upset the young man and their family, but some idiot told them what had happened and it created quite a stir as you could imagine. I tried to get a good explanation at the time for why the priesthood is requisite and never got one from anyone I asked.

Anyway, just thought I'd share as I am just as curious as you. And I hope your friend can find some peace and keep it together. I can't imagine the trials he's had to endure. I think the mother's actions are quite unfortunate in denying her son those blessings. What are the boys' relationship with their mother like? Could they make some sort of appeal to her that would soften her stance? These stories and situations sadden me.

[wuapinmon]

We need to learn to be like Him. Without flaws there is no progress. Where all is perfect, without going through the process of perfecting itself, nothing is perfect. The atonement is what enables us to become perfect.

If you could choose to create your children to be flawless or flawed, which one would you choose? You can fix all problems while statwoman is baking them; do you say, no, honey, let's give them a few flaws so it keeps them humble?

No, you wouldn't.

[Rosebud]

If you could choose to create your children to be flawless or flawed, which one would you choose? You can fix all problems while statwoman is baking them; do you say, no, honey, let's give them a few flaws so it keeps them humble?

No, you wouldn't.

I get your point, but it kind of seems illogical to compare statman and statwoman to God.

Life cannot come out fairly for everyone, which is why we're left to sit here and wonder because God has been fairly mute on the subject of human suffering.

Not saying that you have to believe in Christ or the atonement.... but suffering infinitely in the Garden of Gethsemane could hardly be considered staying "mute on the subject of human suffering." Christianity solves this conundrum by having a God who not only acknowledges suffering, but allows infinite suffering to come upon himself so that his creations don't have to face their suffering alone.

[JohnnyLingo]

If you could choose to create your children to be flawless or flawed, which one would you choose? You can fix all problems while statwoman is baking them; do you say, no, honey, let's give them a few flaws so it keeps them humble?

No, you wouldn't.

If wuap left off the last line of every post of his, he'd come across as a much different person.

[Indy Coug]

If left the line every of he'd across a different.

If you removed every other word, your post would be just as useful.

[bluegoose]

However, the young man wasn't ordained yet and they ended up having to redo all of the ordinances that he was a part of. They tried to keep this hush so as not to upset the young man and their family, but some idiot told them what had happened and it created quite a stir as you could imagine. I tried to get a good explanation at the time for why the priesthood is requisite and never got one from anyone I asked.

This just confirmed one of my fears of trying to get around the rule with an ecclesiastical exemption. Knowing our Bishop fairly well, I think he would sign off on a PH exemption if he could. But if the ordinances wouldn't be considered valid based on his not having the AP, then i wonder if the dad and son would even want to bother with it.

Anyway, just thought I'd share as I am just as curious as you. And I hope your friend can find some peace and keep it together. I can't imagine the trials he's had to endure. I think the mother's actions are quite unfortunate in denying her son those blessings. What are the boys' relationship with their mother like? Could they make some sort of appeal to her that would soften her stance? These stories and situations sadden me

The dad works nights Mon-Thurs, so the boys are with mom basically from monday morning through Friday evening. They spend a lot of time together, so I can only assume that they get along well with her. However, regardless of how good their relationship is, I can't see anything that the boys could say right now to soften her up. The 17 year old was somehow able to get her to agree to his ordination, but the younger ones are 12 and 10. She told the dad that they have to wait until they are 18 to decide, and even then they won't have her blessing in going forward with it.

Sad, sad situation.

[wuapinmon]

I get your point, but it kind of seems illogical to compare statman and statwoman to God.

It seems illogical to call him a Heavenly "Father" if, and that's a big if, he knowingly gave us flaws. Maybe he's an artist, or maybe I'm wrong. But, these thoughts have often troubled me.

[Rosebud]

Excellent brainstem reference. I thought it shouldn't go unrecognized.

Yeah, yeah... rub my nose in it .


I've been thinking about your friend today and feeling sad for his whole family. In the end, it seemed to me the best solution might be to help his son understand that his testimony and relationship with God aren't dependent on whether or not he gets to hold the priesthood or spend a few hours in the temple anyway. It just seems like the bigger deal this father makes of his son being excluded, the more he will hurt his child. Maybe, instead, this can be an opportunity to teach his son that the love he has for God and the love God has for him are based on so much more than these two things.

I suppose the real problem could be that the dad doesn't really believe that God loves them right now. I guess it might, then, be difficult for him to see past the superficialities of the situation. As for me, I'm sure that whether or not this boy has the opportunity to participate in the priesthood and baptisms for the dead, he'll have an equal chance to develop a testimony, serve God, learn to love, etc. It doesn't need to be a bigger deal than it is. Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better.....

[Rosebud]

It seems illogical to call him a Heavenly "Father" if, and that's a big if, he knowingly gave us flaws. Maybe he's an artist, or maybe I'm wrong. But, these thoughts have often troubled me.

I think you make a good point. My initial thought is that using the word "father" to describe God is actually pretty precarious. The concept of "father" is intensely personal and disparate depending upon the experiences each of us have had with our own dads.

In a lot of ways this is really a question about the nature of God. Did he lovingly create us with flaws to help us grow? Did he vindictively create us with flaws so that he could entertain himself by watching us struggle? Is he a far-away artist who abandoned us to the flaws he gave us and rarely takes note of our struggles? Is he a God who is completely aware of our pain because he actually felt it himself during the atonement?

The problem I see is that most of us probably project our own fathers onto God and therefore believe that our Heavenly Father's nature is similar to our earthly father's nature. People who had authoritarian fathers who used punishment and pain to force obedience, will believe that God uses punishment and pain to get us to obey his commandments. People who had loving, egalitarian fathers will believe God is kind and fair. People who had emotionally or physically distant fathers may think God is that crazy artist who created us and abandoned us. People who had abusive fathers probably don't want much to do with someone called "Heavenly Father." But of course God's real nature is completely independent of our own experiences with our own dads.

So maybe it's just illogical to try to define him based on a word that has so many different meanings to so many different people??????

[wuapinmon]

bluegoose, is there any update on this story?

[SoCalCoug]

We have a family in our ward who has had some serious difficulties over the past few years.

While I'm not sure, nor do i care, which happened first, the wife left the church and got involved in a couple of extramarital affairs. This completely broke the heart of the husband, who continues to be active several years later. He struggles daily with maintaining a strong testimony in the face of all of his challenges.

They have 4 kids, three of which are boys. The lone daughter has long since left the church with her mom and has basically forsaken her dad in the process (another heart breaker for the dad). By some minor miracle, the three boys are all still active in the church.

The most recent challenge faced by the dad is that his second son recently turned 12 and was preparing for his Aaronic PH ordination. The CHOI requires consent by both parents to proceed, and mom is adament that she will NOT allow the boys to be ordained to the PH until they are 18 years old.

I doubt that there is any way around this one, as it is very clear in the handbook that mom will need to consent to the ordination.

The dad asked me yesterday if his son can still go to the temple to do baptisms even though he is not ordained. The handbook and the temple rec book state that YM need to be ordained in order to get a recommend.

My question is - Why? Why does a YM need to be ordained to the AP in order to do baptisms for the dead? If this was his daughter, it wouldn't be an issue, as the kid is already baptized and has been active in the church his whole life. Parental consent is not required to go the temple in the case of divorced parents.

The dad is going out of his mind trying to find ways to keep his kids active and involved in the church, but this is yet another stumbling block for him.

Is there any exceptions to the rule? Would the bishop, SP or temple pres be able to waive the ordination requirement for him?

I just ordained my son a deacon, and they never contacted his mom for her consent.

[bluegoose]

What a good thread to re-read. Thanks for the bump. And thanks for all of the thoughts on the situation.

As several here suggested, the father did speak extensively with the Bishop about the situation. The Bishop was very sympathetic and took it to the Stake President, who then spoke with the temple president. The temple president made it very clear that he would need to be ordained to the aaronic priesthood before before issued a temporary recommend for baptisms. There was no way around it and his hands were tied on this one.

The family is still struggling. The oldest son, who is about 19 or 20 now actually showed up to church this past Sunday. He is still friendly with everyone in the ward, but only makes it out about 10% of the time. Part of this is due to work schedules.

The two younger boys, ages 12 and 11 I believe, still come to church 3 of 4 weekends per month - whenever they are with their dad. They are with mom during the week, so neither is able to attend scouts or mutual activities. That, combined with the lack of priesthood for the 12 year old still makes it a bit awkward for him. But he is a good kid and is making good choices.

The 11 year old is doing pretty well. He bore a very nice testimony on Sunday. I also substitute taught his class last month. I was given an hours notice before the class, so I had minimal preparation time. Normally not a problem, but honestly when I saw that it was his class it made me work a little harder to try and make it a good lesson.

No change that I know of with regard to the mom and her attitude toward allowing the boys advancement in the PH.