The fourfold purposes of the LDS Church!

[jay santos]

That is really unfair and unnecessarily hurtful. It is also not true in my case, not remotely. Have no fear, I fixed it for you.

In my experience, wards outside of the inter-mountain west are rarely small enough to cover an area where you don't come face to face with poverty. I know in my ward, for example, there is a lot of focus on helping members in need. In my community, there is a great deal of serious poverty and the LDS wards (there are two) are more or less alone among the many churches here in not making any efforts to help people who don't sit in our pews. It just isn't part of our mission...or isn't it any more? That is my point and why I am encouraged.

Just as dumb and unfair. I really doubt there are any rich, snobby Utah Mormons that don't know any poor people or the effects of poverty. Lame Utah smack.

[UtahDan]

Just as dumb and unfair. I really doubt there are any rich, snobby Utah Mormons that don't know any poor people or the effects of poverty. Lame Utah smack.

Good, I'm glad you picked up on my sarcasm. Poverty is everywhere.

[Portland Ute]

I agree. I would just love to see service to the poor be elevated in the rhetoric and the culture to the place where temple service currently resides. We rightly talk a lot about the temple and revere the importance of what is done there. I hope this is the first step toward putting charity toward the poor on equal footing with temple work. Does that make sense?

I think helping real, live people...the poor, the sick and the needy is much more important than anything that goes on in the temple.

I guess that probably means I'm not a good member of the Church.

I just think that if God is there, he's all powerful. Such things as sealing people, etc, are pretty easy to take care of in an afterlife by an omnipotent being. Just speak the words. Group sealings, etc.

It's taking care of each here on earth that matters the most.

I wonder what good the Church could do if all the time that people spent at the temple or doing geneology were focused on helping others...both in and out of the church.

I'm willing to bet you'd actually see a large increase in the rate of baptisms.

I felt and still do feel that it was a fraud to call what I did on 95% of my mission (proselyting) "service." It was door to door sales. It was teaching. Sure, I donated time and money to "serve" the Church, but I don't think I was really doing anything that most people would call service. Ironically (or not), some of our best contacts came from people we met while doing "real" service for non-LDS people or groups.

I think PAC touched on this earlier in the thread.

Get all the old people out of the Churches and into schools helping disadvantaged kids learn and give them mentors. Get your heads out of genealogy archives and help single parents. Help the sick get from appointment to appointment.

I really do think that a LOT of temple/genealogy/proselyting efforts are at best a waste of time, at worst VERY self serving.

I am glad to see the Church add this to the main, stated purposes. I hope to see a shift in emphasis towards this from missionaries, volunteers and church funds.

I honestly do believe that the converts will follow if there is a large, concerted effort and direction of funds towards true Christian service. There may be a lag, but it's time and money well invested, even if people don't convert.

[The_Tick]

Sounds like you are already "with the program". Why would you be bothered if there is a renewed emphasis?

Some folks on here wouldn't consider me "with the program" because I want folks to work for what they get.

Really what I was stating was that I hope the emphasis that is being placed on this isn't one of "we need more money" to make it happen. Rather a emphasis on people volunteering more time and a redistribution of the monies that are already donated.

I hope I explained it better that time.

[kccougar]

I think helping real, live people...the poor, the sick and the needy is much more important than anything that goes on in the temple.

I guess that probably means I'm not a good member of the Church.

I just think that if God is there, he's all powerful. Such things as sealing people, etc, are pretty easy to take care of in an afterlife by an omnipotent being. Just speak the words. Group sealings, etc.

It's taking care of each here on earth that matters the most.

I wonder what good the Church could do if all the time that people spent at the temple or doing geneology were focused on helping others...both in and out of the church.

I'm willing to bet you'd actually see a large increase in the rate of baptisms.

I felt and still do feel that it was a fraud to call what I did on 95% of my mission (proselyting) "service." It was door to door sales. It was teaching. Sure, I donated time and money to "serve" the Church, but I don't think I was really doing anything that most people would call service. Ironically (or not), some of our best contacts came from people we met while doing "real" service for non-LDS people or groups.

I think PAC touched on this earlier in the thread.

Get all the old people out of the Churches and into schools helping disadvantaged kids learn and give them mentors. Get your heads out of genealogy archives and help single parents. Help the sick get from appointment to appointment.

I really do think that a LOT of temple/genealogy/proselyting efforts are at best a waste of time, at worst VERY self serving.

I am glad to see the Church add this to the main, stated purposes. I hope to see a shift in emphasis towards this from missionaries, volunteers and church funds.

I honestly do believe that the converts will follow if there is a large, concerted effort and direction of funds towards true Christian service. There may be a lag, but it's time and money well invested, even if people don't convert.

I'm thrilled for the added emphasis, but I think you're really short-changing temple service and family history work.

[Goatnapper'96]

I think helping real, live people...the poor, the sick and the needy is much more important than anything that goes on in the temple.

I guess that probably means I'm not a good member of the Church.

I just think that if God is there, he's all powerful. Such things as sealing people, etc, are pretty easy to take care of in an afterlife by an omnipotent being. Just speak the words. Group sealings, etc.

It's taking care of each here on earth that matters the most.

I wonder what good the Church could do if all the time that people spent at the temple or doing geneology were focused on helping others...both in and out of the church.

I'm willing to bet you'd actually see a large increase in the rate of baptisms.

I felt and still do feel that it was a fraud to call what I did on 95% of my mission (proselyting) "service." It was door to door sales. It was teaching. Sure, I donated time and money to "serve" the Church, but I don't think I was really doing anything that most people would call service. Ironically (or not), some of our best contacts came from people we met while doing "real" service for non-LDS people or groups.

I think PAC touched on this earlier in the thread.

Get all the old people out of the Churches and into schools helping disadvantaged kids learn and give them mentors. Get your heads out of genealogy archives and help single parents. Help the sick get from appointment to appointment.

I really do think that a LOT of temple/genealogy/proselyting efforts are at best a waste of time, at worst VERY self serving.

I am glad to see the Church add this to the main, stated purposes. I hope to see a shift in emphasis towards this from missionaries, volunteers and church funds.

I honestly do believe that the converts will follow if there is a large, concerted effort and direction of funds towards true Christian service. There may be a lag, but it's time and money well invested, even if people don't convert.

I am an outspoken fan of the new emphasis. I think Christian service is the most important attribute of true discipleship. However, I also believe ordinances are important. I think that there is a gap of opportunity in our society and I think the Church is structuring itself to take advantage of it. I forsee a big piece of this development being more pressure on financially comfortable members whose kids are no longer in the home, yet the members still work, to get out and serve. I can forsee many more senior couples called to serve in more service oriented missions. We have a few, but I see a huge shift from proselyting senior couples to service missions. I still think PAC and Creek3ster and the other decrepid folks are safe in their High Priest LAN parties focussing on the dead, but you and I are likely to be involved in some afternoon programs for poor kids in 20 years.

[Portland Ute]

I'm thrilled for the added emphasis, but I think you're really short-changing temple service and family history work.

That's fine. I'm not one that has ever really had great experiences in the temple that I could not have had alone with my wife in other settings such as the mountains talking. I fully understand that many LDS people will find my statement heretical and completely dismiss what I am saying.

I am just of the opinion that "God can sort out the details" when it comes to work that is done or not done in the Temple. As it now stands, we had better hope that is the case anyway as all the combined temple work that has been done is a DROP IN THE BUCKET when it comes to the total lives that have passed through this mortality. He's going to have to do a lot of sorting on all those issues anyway.

Now, when it comes to making people's lives here on earth better, I think we can have a very profound impact.

I just think the time, efforts and resources could be put to much better use.

Why aren't we building homeless shelters? Instead, we build tons of buildings that sit empty 95% of the time.

I think we have a pretty hands-off approach, organizationally, to helping the needy and downtrodden in our church. It's not who we are, it's something we schedule and do, for the most part.

In these bad times, I think it would be amazing if we took some of our ward buildings and opened them to help the homeless. We could still use them for church. Lot's of other denominations do such things.

We have a kind of separate-but-we-want-to-help-you attitude as an organization.

Maybe instead of spending money on more buildings, the members should "sacrifice" and cram closer together in pews and rooms so that we can spend some of that money on homeless shelters.

I'm not saying the Church doesn't do anything, but like I said, it's all distant, for the most part. We package up stuff and send it half way around the world.

When I drive past the Catholic and Christian soup kitchens and homeless shelters, I really do think, "That is true religion." Sadly, the Church as an organization really doesn't get down to the nitty gritty of helping some of the people that are the worst off, even if it is because of their own poor choices.

[Goatnapper'96]

That's fine. I'm not one that has ever really had great experiences in the temple that I could not have had alone with my wife in other settings such as the mountains talking. I fully understand that many LDS people will find my statement heretical and completely dismiss what I am saying.

I am just of the opinion that "God can sort out the details" when it comes to work that is done or not done in the Temple. As it now stands, we had better hope that is the case anyway as all the combined temple work that has been done is a DROP IN THE BUCKET when it comes to the total lives that have passed through this mortality. He's going to have to do a lot of sorting on all those issues anyway.

Now, when it comes to making people's lives here on earth better, I think we can have a very profound impact.

I just think the time, efforts and resources could be put to much better use.

Why aren't we building homeless shelters? Instead, we build tons of buildings that sit empty 95% of the time.

I think we have a pretty hands-off approach, organizationally, to helping the needy and downtrodden in our church. It's not who we are, it's something we schedule and do, for the most part.

In these bad times, I think it would be amazing if we took some of our ward buildings and opened them to help the homeless. We could still use them for church. Lot's of other denominations do such things.

We have a kind of separate-but-we-want-to-help-you attitude as an organization.

Maybe instead of spending money on more buildings, the members should "sacrifice" and cram closer together in pews and rooms so that we can spend some of that money on homeless shelters.

I'm not saying the Church doesn't do anything, but like I said, it's all distant, for the most part. We package up stuff and send it half way around the world.

When I drive past the Catholic and Christian soup kitchens and homeless shelters, I really do think, "That is true religion." Sadly, the Church as an organization really doesn't get down to the nitty gritty of helping some of the people that are the worst off, even if it is because of their own poor choices.

I am often reminded of some quote along these lines from President Spencer W. Kimball concerning the emphasis on spiritual progression over physical/material progression. I believe President Kimball said something along the lines of "you might feed them, but we will make them Gods." This is going to be interesting as I think there is a deeper strain in LDS doctrine/culture that the spiritual development is a more celestial order. I will bet there is an air in mormonism that looks at a Catholic Soup Kitchen and while recognizing the good Christian service it is, thinks that mormonism has something more to offer, i.e. eternal progression, and thus that is what mormonism focuses upon. It will be interesting how the leadership balances these two concepts and allocates resources to goals that can appear to be mutually exclusive unless you buy the angle that Christian service is a better marketing angle for the Church and if it is then it begs the question why wasn't it doing this all along?

[PaloAltoCougar]

I've been surprised but happy how much charitable service my son's priests quorum provides. They go over to SF fairly often and work in the St. Anthony's Dining Hall (it's the place Will Smith's character lived/dined at in The Pursuit of Happyness). They also deliver food from the SF food bank to the needy in some of the lousiest parts of the big city. During one such outing a couple of weeks ago, he was greeted at the door by a naked older lady who, without any apparent embarrassment, took the food and thanked him (only verbally). He's still trying to purge the memory from his psyche, and hopes this isn't a harbinger of what lies ahead on his mission. Boobs are not always in.

[TheBYUGuy]

Something to ponder from Joseph F. Smith:

"It has always been a cardinal teaching with the Latter-day Saints, that a religion which has not the power to save the people temporally and make them prosperous and happy here cannot be depended upon to save them spiritually, and exalt them in the life to come" (quoted in L. Arrington, Great Basin Kingdom, 1958, p. 425, n. 16)

[Solon]

Agree. I'm really getting sick of people criticizing the church for this real estate investment. It's an investment. It was done with the financial arm of the church. It may turn out to be a bad investment, but that's a different matter. It's a financial matter and done with funds that don't comingle with the funds the church uses from tithing and fast offerings.

Fine, be sick of it. For a non-profit church, this organization has some pretty deep pockets and far-reaching interests. The whole non-co-mingling funds rationale is silly. Those funds derive ultimately from sacred sources. Plus, the church is good at using its religious influence to drive its business deals (remember the tiff over the dry-goods store next to Crossroads mall?).

I'm glad that there will be more focus from here on out on helping the poor. But pardon me if I don't get all excited for a church based on Christian principles issuing a press release that it will now do more to help the poor. If, indeed, the church has been doing it all along (as several posts in this thread indicate), then this new emphasis is just PR. I guess now I remember Jesus teaching pretty vividly that it's important to publicize all of your good deeds so that the world will know about them.

[Goatnapper'96]

I've been surprised but happy how much charitable service my son's priests quorum provides. They go over to SF fairly often and work in the St. Anthony's Dining Hall (it's the place Will Smith's character lived/dined at in The Pursuit of Happyness). They also deliver food from the SF food bank to the needy in some of the lousiest parts of the big city. During one such outing a couple of weeks ago, he was greeted at the door by a naked older lady who, without any apparent embarrassment, took the food and thanked him (only verbally). He's still trying to purge the memory from his psyche, and hopes this isn't a harbinger of what lies ahead on his mission. Boobs are not always in.

You need to watch more National Geographic to prepare him.

[jay santos]

Fine, be sick of it. For a non-profit church, this organization has some pretty deep pockets and far-reaching interests. The whole non-co-mingling funds rationale is silly. Those funds derive ultimately from sacred sources. Plus, the church is good at using its religious influence to drive its business deals (remember the tiff over the dry-goods store next to Crossroads mall?).

I'm glad that there will be more focus from here on out on helping the poor. But pardon me if I don't get all excited for a church based on Christian principles issuing a press release that it will now do more to help the poor. If, indeed, the church has been doing it all along (as several posts in this thread indicate), then this new emphasis is just PR. I guess now I remember Jesus teaching pretty vividly that it's important to publicize all of your good deeds so that the world will know about them.

I don't know you that well, and maybe you don't fit my generalization. But nearly 100% of the time when I hear people whining about what the church is doing financially, it's done by people who 1) hate the church and just wish it would die and go away or 2) have a complete misunderstanding of the church's business operations.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Agree. I'm really getting sick of people criticizing the church for this real estate investment. It's an investment. It was done with the financial arm of the church. It may turn out to be a bad investment, but that's a different matter. It's a financial matter and done with funds that don't comingle with the funds the church uses from tithing and fast offerings.

Yes. After all, it's the Lord's real estate investment firm, right?

[Moliere]

That's fine. I'm not one that has ever really had great experiences in the temple that I could not have had alone with my wife in other settings such as the mountains talking. I fully understand that many LDS people will find my statement heretical and completely dismiss what I am saying.

I am just of the opinion that "God can sort out the details" when it comes to work that is done or not done in the Temple. As it now stands, we had better hope that is the case anyway as all the combined temple work that has been done is a DROP IN THE BUCKET when it comes to the total lives that have passed through this mortality. He's going to have to do a lot of sorting on all those issues anyway.

Interestingly enough it has been through temple service that I've come to realize my place in the world. Part of that place is to be less greedy and proud and to be more compassionate and helpful with not just my money but with my time. Maybe I could have learned this lesson better somewhere else, but it just so happens that learning in that environment really helped.

Now, when it comes to making people's lives here on earth better, I think we can have a very profound impact.

I just think the time, efforts and resources could be put to much better use.

Why aren't we building homeless shelters? Instead, we build tons of buildings that sit empty 95% of the time.

Our church building does not sit empty 95% of the time. In fact I think at least 50% of the time it is in use by someone. It is either being used by scouts (teaching them life lessons and skills as well as doing good turns), members getting together to socialize, bishops counseling people that are in need of help, wedding receptions for people that can't afford a nice big wedding reception (offered free of charge, you just have to supply the balloons to fill the bball hoop), church service on Sundays, scout roundtables, etc. I get your point but don't discount the use of the church buildings and they are not large or ornate in any sense of the world.

I think we have a pretty hands-off approach, organizationally, to helping the needy and downtrodden in our church. It's not who we are, it's something we schedule and do, for the most part.

I agree and hopefully this new emphasis changes this.

In these bad times, I think it would be amazing if we took some of our ward buildings and opened them to help the homeless. We could still use them for church. Lot's of other denominations do such things.

This would be very difficult to do (see discussion of use of church building above). If you don't believe me, call your building scheduler and try to get a night during the week to schedule an activity. The buildings (at least in my area) are used for so many things that scheduling can be a nightmare. I think your idea of building a homeless shelter would work better and serve a more useful purpose. In all, we use our buildings to a more full effect than other churches in my area.

We have a kind of separate-but-we-want-to-help-you attitude as an organization.

Maybe instead of spending money on more buildings, the members should "sacrifice" and cram closer together in pews and rooms so that we can spend some of that money on homeless shelters.

You must have a gigantic ward building. Before we split our ward, we had one nursery class meeting in the overflow area because there were no open classrooms. A SS class met in the kitchen.

I'm not saying the Church doesn't do anything, but like I said, it's all distant, for the most part. We package up stuff and send it half way around the world.

When I drive past the Catholic and Christian soup kitchens and homeless shelters, I really do think, "That is true religion." Sadly, the Church as an organization really doesn't get down to the nitty gritty of helping some of the people that are the worst off, even if it is because of their own poor choices.

I agree we can do more, but I think there are greater needs in other parts of the world. I say I think since I've never been to a 3rd world country (other than when I visited downtown Atlanta ) We live in a rich country where even the poor of this country live like kings compared to other places. A lot of what we see is relative to what we know (for better or for worse).