Thoughts on faith

[SeattleUte]

Is there a representative passage from Moses I you could cite? For my money, Sagan's Pale Blue Dot is tough to beat, but there are many authors that have provided numinous moments for me. Sagan just did it for me with a consistency that no other author has approached.

I imagine SU would have thoughts concerning your use of "unschooled 19th century farmboy".

I'm not sure what he means by Moses 1.

[Levin]

so I cling to the hope that such things are true.

In your testimonies as Bishop, did you ever say that you "knew" such things were true?

If so, were you deterred by the cultural blowback that you would have experienced had you ended a testimony with the statement, "so I clilng to the hope that such things are true. In the name of . . . "

How honest are we when sharing our testimonies with others?

[PaloAltoCougar]

Is there a representative passage from Moses I you could cite? For my money, Sagan's Pale Blue Dot is tough to beat, but there are many authors that have provided numinous moments for me. Sagan just did it for me with a consistency that no other author has approached.

I like the whole chapter, but a particular favorite is:
27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God.
28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore.
29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him ace to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

While serving a mission in Vienna, we met with an engineer and amateur astronomer who showed us some great slides of various nebulae, star clusters and other celestial objects. At the conclusion, he said that one of the reasons he abandoned his Catholic faith was its long-held tenet that the Earth was God's sole and crowning creation, and that there was nothing else out there. While I read the foregoing passage, he showed the slides again. It was a cool presentation that he really appreciated.

And I like Sagan a lot, too.

I imagine SU would have thoughts concerning your use of "unschooled 19th century farmboy".

Hopefully he'll be a mensch and spare me those thoughts of which, for the record, I have been a faithful student. It was for that reason I used the word "unschooled" rather than "uneducated."

[PaloAltoCougar]

In your testimonies as Bishop, did you ever say that you "knew" such things were true?

If so, were you deterred by the cultural blowback that you would have experienced had you ended a testimony with the statement, "so I clilng to the hope that such things are true. In the name of . . . "

How honest are we when sharing our testimonies with others?

Even as bishop, I rarely went into "I know" mode, reserving the declaration for things like the power of prayer, the importance of living certain principles, and that certain consequences result from certain actions or behaviors. I'd often think of saying "I have a hunch", or "I'm pretty sure that", but ultimately shied away from such qualifiers. Plus, I have no problem with coming up with a workable definition of "know" that suits me.

[Levin]

Even as bishop, I rarely went into "I know" mode, reserving the declaration for things like the power of prayer, the importance of living certain principles, and that certain consequences result from certain actions or behaviors. I'd often think of saying "I have a hunch", or "I'm pretty sure that", but ultimately shied away from such qualifiers. Plus, I have no problem with coming up with a workable definition of "know" that suits me.

I've been in the "know" mode before, but i don't feel comforable going there anymore.

I remember Elder Tingey talking to us missionaries in the MTC and saying, "many of you may be struggling with your testimonies at this time, but I want you to know that I KNOW. You can rely on my testimony for a while as you gain your own, because I KNOW."

I was comforted somehow by his offer. Seems like the same kind of comfort a Bishop could give to those who are struggling. Not that you didn't, of course, and that kind of spiritual reliance does not have to depend on an expression of "I know." Frankly I find solace in those who choose to believe and have faith as much as I do in those who say they "know."

I think the reason we want to find people who "know" is to satisfy our inquiring reason, our scientific bent. Joseph saw the divine. That person knows b/c he has experienced it. And, well, that's comforting b/c it's just like someone telling me he knows Orangutans exist b/c he has seen them. I can rely on him to know that Orangutans exist even if I'll never visit a zoo or Borneo.

[Levin]

Plus, I have no problem with coming up with a workable definition of "know" that suits me.

So you can use the "know" phrasing, with your own mental qualifiers. I think a lot of people do this.

[beefytee]

Thanks PAC.

I loved reading your contribution here.

I wish I was as good of a raconteur as you.

[byu71]

Thanks PAC.

I loved reading your contribution here.

I wish I was as good of a raconteur as you.

Great call. He is truly a great anecdotist.

[tooblue]

Yann Martel, in The Life of Pi, a book I found really interesting, although I hear there were some accusations of plagiarism out there.

The Life of Pi is perhaps my favorite book. There is no plagiarism only cross pollination.

[ERCougar]

Is there a representative passage from Moses I you could cite? For my money, Sagan's Pale Blue Dot is tough to beat, but there are many authors that have provided numinous moments for me. Sagan just did it for me with a consistency that no other author has approached.

I imagine SU would have thoughts concerning your use of "unschooled 19th century farmboy".

Ironically, Sagan's Pale Blue Dot only illustrates the narrator's point. As I recall, he speaks of earth being a pale blue dot in an immense space. This is a fairly meaningless and banal point, until he then goes on to discuss our responsibility to preserve life on this "pale blue dot" (right? It's been a while...). It's the attachment of his value system, a value system that is neither provable or testable, that transforms this from a dry yeastless fact into something meaningful, even beautiful. It's his "religion" of humanism, or at least a value for life, that injects meaning into his thought.

[SeattleUte]

The Life of Pi is perhaps my favorite book. There is no plagiarism only cross pollination.

The plagiarism charge is not legitimate.

[wuapinmon]

So you can use the "know" phrasing, with your own mental qualifiers. I think a lot of people do this.

This always makes me feel better: D&C 46

11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

I'm more of a verse 14 guy.

Even as bishop, I rarely went into "I know" mode, reserving the declaration for things like the power of prayer, the importance of living certain principles, and that certain consequences result from certain actions or behaviors. I'd often think of saying "I have a hunch", or "I'm pretty sure that", but ultimately shied away from such qualifiers. Plus, I have no problem with coming up with a workable definition of "know" that suits me.

I always I say, "I believe" instead of I know. I don't know, but I do believe.

[woot]

Ironically, Sagan's Pale Blue Dot only illustrates the narrator's point. As I recall, he speaks of earth being a pale blue dot in an immense space. This is a fairly meaningless and banal point, until he then goes on to discuss our responsibility to preserve life on this "pale blue dot" (right? It's been a while...). It's the attachment of his value system, a value system that is neither provable or testable, that transforms this from a dry yeastless fact into something meaningful, even beautiful. It's his "religion" of humanism, or at least a value for life, that injects meaning into his thought.

Then why bring religion into it at all? It seems that the issue is boring, lifeless people (at least as common among religites as non-believers, I'd wager), regardless of what they think about gods. That you call humanism a religion tells me that you're not very confident in your position on this.

Also, I doubt you'd have considered it to be such a meaningless and banal point back when it first happened. It was a startling picture with or without commentary. Even the first close-up picture of the earth from space was a really big deal. The recent Cassini photos that feature earth as a pixel-size speck seen through one of Saturn's rings was also widely acclaimed across the webbernets without accompanying commentary.

[ERCougar]

Then why bring religion into it at all? It seems that the issue is boring, lifeless people (at least as common among religites as non-believers, I'd wager), regardless of what they think about gods. That you call humanism a religion tells me that you're not very confident in your position on this.

Also, I doubt you'd have considered it to be such a meaningless and banal point back when it first happened. It was a startling picture with or without commentary. Even the first close-up picture of the earth from space was a really big deal. The recent Cassini photos that feature earth as a pixel-size speck seen through one of Saturn's rings was also widely acclaimed across the webbernets without accompanying commentary.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're saying with the first paragraph. Didn't I say that Sagan inserts his "religion" to bring meaning to what would otherwise be a boring fact? Am I misunderstanding your point?

I never commented on the picture, just on Sagan's commentary. Of course, I found the photo beautiful, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

[woot]

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're saying with the first paragraph. Didn't I say that Sagan inserts his "religion" to bring meaning to what would otherwise be a boring fact? Am I misunderstanding your point?

I never commented on the picture, just on Sagan's commentary. Of course, I found the photo beautiful, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

Right, but if you're going to start calling any sort of commentary "religion" the word has lost all meaning and the original point this thread started with is lost.

Re: your second point, you did indeed refer to the picture (or the point provided by the picture), absent commentary, as "meaningless and banal". Thus my response.