Foreknowledge Problem

[wuapinmon]

1) If we're promised that we'll never be tempted beyond our capacity to resist, and
2) God has perfect foreknowledge of all actions that every atom in the universe will make/take, then
3) He'll know which situations will make us sin, therefore
4) Would that not mean that in essence he allows us to sin because he knows we won't be able to resist some temptations, therefore
5) Are we predestined?

[Hallelujah]

1) If we're promised that we'll never be tempted beyond our capacity to resist, and
2) God has perfect foreknowledge of all actions that every atom in the universe will make/take, then
3) He'll know which situations will make us sin, therefore
4) Would that not mean that in essence he allows us to sin because he knows we won't be able to resist some temptations, therefore
5) Are we predestined?

Yep. You are predestined so go out and sin. It's all just a game for God.

[Moliere]

2) God has perfect foreknowledge of all actions that every atom in the universe will make/take

Not sure I agree with this. I heard it many times in seminary but I also heard a lot of renditions of "My turn on earth" songs in seminary.

He may know our limits, but I don't think he knows what we will do. That would pretty much we contrary to agency.

[JohnnyLingo]

He may know our limits, but I don't think he knows what we will do. That would pretty much we contrary to agency.

This is the real foreknowledge problem.

And I disagree with your premise, btw. Knowing what someone will do does not mean they had no choice but to do it, IMO.

[Non Sequitur]

It's all just a game for God.

That might be the smartest thing you've ever said here.

[Art Vandelay]

1) If we're promised that we'll never be tempted beyond our capacity to resist, and
2) God has perfect foreknowledge of all actions that every atom in the universe will make/take, then
3) He'll know which situations will make us sin, therefore
4) Would that not mean that in essence he allows us to sin because he knows we won't be able to resist some temptations, therefore
5) Are we predestined?

Is the purpose of mortality to "prove" to God that we are worthy of what he is willing to give us, or is it to prove to ourselves we deserve it?

That is not meant as a rhetorical response. I have pondered that question many times and often come to different conclusions.

[wuapinmon]

Not sure I agree with this. I heard it many times in seminary but I also heard a lot of renditions of "My turn on earth" songs in seminary.

He may know our limits, but I don't think he knows what we will do. That would pretty much we contrary to agency.

This is the real foreknowledge problem.

And I disagree with your premise, btw. Knowing what someone will do does not mean they had no choice but to do it, IMO.

EJ and Lingo,

Then this seems to indicate that you deny him absolute omniscience in favor of a probable omniscience---he knew that Jesus wouldn't sin vs. he had ever hope that Jesus wouldn't sin, but couldn't know for sure. Doesn't that really disrupt the space-time continuum (if you think God inhabits linear time) of prophecy of future events (if there is any human contingency)?

That might be the smartest thing you've ever said here.

I've been there, my brother. I know how you feel.

Is the purpose of mortality to "prove" to God that we are worthy of what he is willing to give us, or is it to prove to ourselves we deserve it?

That is not meant as a rhetorical response. I have pondered that question many times and often come to different conclusions.

Doc Vandelay,

As an educator the paradigm of "test" or "proving" has always struck me as flawed. If we use reason and evidence to back up learning, the idea of proving (some root as prove) seems to be the wrong model for what is really a question of faith. With all that said, if I have to choose between your two options, I would go with the former, but I really don't like it. I think The_Tick has said some wise things about what it might be like in the hereafter, and I don't agree with him necessarily, but there is wisdom in what he has said. Joshua 24 really gives it to us directly, "Choose ye this day," but then we have an entirely different model nowadays in most of Christianity of "behave or you're going to catch hell."

[Moliere]

1) If we're promised that we'll never be tempted beyond our capacity to resist, and
2) God has perfect foreknowledge of all actions that every atom in the universe will make/take, then
3) He'll know which situations will make us sin, therefore
4) Would that not mean that in essence he allows us to sin because he knows we won't be able to resist some temptations, therefore
5) Are we predestined?

This is the real foreknowledge problem.

And I disagree with your premise, btw. Knowing what someone will do does not mean they had no choice but to do it, IMO.

But if God knows what we are going to do, which is sin, then he wouldn't allow us to be in that situation in the first place.

[JohnnyLingo]

But if God knows what we are going to do, which is sin, then he wouldn't allow us to be in that situation in the first place.

So you say he'd forcibly stop us from approaching a situation where we would sin.

[wuapinmon]

So you say he'd forcibly stop us from approaching a situation where we would sin.

The bigger question is does he interfere in the world somehow without imposing on our free will?

[Moliere]

So you say he'd forcibly stop us from approaching a situation where we would sin.

Not at all, just trying to get my hands around Wuap's comment.

1 Cor says he won't allow us to be tempted above that we are able to resist. If God knows what decisions we will make in a certain situations and we are trying to be good, then how come we end up in situations in which we end up sinning?

I think God knows our limits but he does not know how we will choose.

For instance, the other day I was at Jiffy Lube. The credit card machine wasn't working so I had to pay cash. I was $2 short so the cashier guy ran to get the manager to approve the $2 discount. When he stepped away the cash register opened. I was standing there all alone with a cash register of probably a couple hundred dollars. I could have easily taken the money but I didn't. Why? Because I didn't need the money and I try to be honest.

But what if I needed the money to buy food for my family? Would the cash register still have opened when it did? If we follow 1 Cor then it would depend on whether or not that is too much temptation for me to handle. If God knew I would take them money then the register wouldn't have opened until the clerk got back.

In a round about way that feels like lack of agency and predestination.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Yep. You are predestined so go out and sin. It's all just a game for God.

Could you talk about this theory more? I would like to think that this life is more than just an amusing passing of time, but you are known to be honest and thoughtful so I would like to hear more about this.

[wuapinmon]

Not at all, just trying to get my hands around Wuap's comment.

1 Cor says he won't allow us to be tempted above that we are able to resist. If God knows what decisions we will make in a certain situations and we are trying to be good, then how come we end up in situations in which we end up sinning?

I think God knows our limits but he does not know how we will choose.

For instance, the other day I was at Jiffy Lube. The credit card machine wasn't working so I had to pay cash. I was $2 short so the cashier guy ran to get the manager to approve the $2 discount. When he stepped away the cash register opened. I was standing there all alone with a cash register of probably a couple hundred dollars. I could have easily taken the money but I didn't. Why? Because I didn't need the money and I try to be honest.

But what if I needed the money to buy food for my family? Would the cash register still have opened when it did? If we follow 1 Cor then it would depend on whether or not that is too much temptation for me to handle. If God knew I would take them money then the register wouldn't have opened until the clerk got back.

In a round about way that feels like lack of agency and predestination.

This is a great example. I've been reviewing some of my notes from a presentation I made last year at a conference at Norfolk State, and this whole problem of foreknowledge is ceaselessly intriguing to me. I like to think about the times when I sin and then wonder why it was that I was tempted if God knew what I was going to do.

Ultimately, I have to think that I side with Gersonides. God knows all the possible outcomes of something, but he cannot know which one that we'll choose. Therefore, in harmony with the Scriptures, which never call him this, I do not believe that God is omniscient.

[Viking]

I think this is mormon lore, rooted in no scriptural reference, right?

[jay santos]

A few differences I have with this.

1. I disagree witgh interpretation of not being tempted above capacity.
2. Probably disagree with notion of literal Satan character whose job is to tempt man.
3. Probably disagree with what the consequences are for sin as far as how God perceives it. He knows I'm going to watch football today. Does it change anything?