Elder Holland's Book of Mormon talk

[Surfah]

Course he's already achieved the desired victory and effect he wants just by being the subject of this.

And to that end, it was a troll. A successful one at that.

[RobinFinderson]

Well then we see it differently.

Anyway you slice it, it was disrespectful. It was his intent to troll and cause discord as it almost always is.

I think his real intentions are comedic. I think you just don't get his sense of humor.

[RockyBalboa]

And to that end, it was a troll. A successful one at that.

Agreed. It's always his intention. He can sit there in his law office and smile knowing he gets away with it time and again.

[Tim]

Well then we see it differently.

Anyway you slice it, it was disrespectful. It was his intent to troll and cause discord as it almost always is.

Rocky, you can't say, "well, we see it differently," and then in the very next sentence, use terms like "Any way you slice it." Obviously the way some people slice it is different than yours. That's okay, though. It's okay that we all have different views. It's a community of different-minded people! It's fine that we all slice things differently. There's no "Any way you slice it" here, since obviously a number of people don't feel the discord that you're referring to. If they all did, then yes, it would be an absolute. This thread has shown, however, that it's NOT an absolute, and that there are other ways of viewing it that don't equate to yours, and that those views are just as valid and right as yours are.

No more "Any way you slice it talk," otherwise it makes you look like the one who's trying to cause discord. That's not your intention, though, I don't think, so it's better to just avoid that kind of wording.

[byu71]

I think his real intentions are comedic. I think you just don't get his sense of humor.

Neither your or SU's act is comic when you demonize former Prophets. To pat both of you on the back, I don't notice that much anymore. My appreciation for your's and his posts has gone up dramatically.

[RockyBalboa]

I think his real intentions are comedic. I think you just don't get his sense of humor.

I don't find the mocking and attacks of a man and to those who believe him to be a Prophet funny.

Nor do I find the mocking of something he hasn't seen or listened to and that I feel a spiritual conviction about to be funny.

[RockyBalboa]

Rocky, you can't say, "well, we see it differently," and then in the very next sentence, use terms like "Any way you slice it." Obviously the way some people slice it is different than yours. That's okay, though. It's okay that we all have different views. It's a community of different-minded people! It's fine that we all slice things differently. There's no "Any way you slice it" here, since obviously a number of people don't feel the discord that you're referring to. If they all did, then yes, it would be an absolute. This thread has shown, however, that it's NOT an absolute, and that there are other ways of viewing it that don't equate to yours, and that those views are just as valid and right as yours are.

No more "Any way you slice it talk," otherwise it makes you look like the one who's trying to cause discord. That's not your intention, though, I don't think, so it's better to just avoid that kind of wording.

Again you're welcome to your opinion, and I completely disagree with you and I'll just leave it at that. Also please don't tell me which kind of wording to avoid, because like you insist..it's just opinion...right?

If you're comfortable with mocking opinions, so be it.

[Tim]

Again you're welcome to your opinion, and I completely disagree with you and I'll just leave it at that.

If you're comfortable with mocking opinions, so be it.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Seminary arrives early in the morning. Have a great day, friend.

[RockyBalboa]

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Seminary arrives early in the morning. Have a great day, friend.

I will. You too.

[UtahDan]

I don't find the mocking and attacks of a man and to those who believe him to be a Prophet funny.

Nor do I find the mocking of something he hasn't seen or listened to and that I feel a spiritual conviction about to be funny.

Then don't read it. Pelagius was kind enough to give a "how to" on how to completely ignore someone here.

[byu71]

Again you're welcome to your opinion, and I completely disagree with you and I'll just leave it at that. Also please don't tell me which kind of wording to avoid, because like you insist..it's just opinion...right?

If you're comfortable with mocking opinions, so be it.

You know I enjoy back and forths. Therefor, if you prefer not to continue, I understand.

If you would though, I would like you, or anyone else show in this thread what was said that would arise to the level of mocking. The two posts I read seemed an expression of opinion.

One additional comment on trolling. If a person comes on here and states an opinion that is either very conservative or very liberal, it could be called trolling as we know how the other side will react.

[Solon]

I finally got a chance to hear it - it's a great speech. I really enjoyed listening to it. Even if I don't agree with everything he said, I'm not his target audience. I was disappointed that his "yelling" wasn't "apoplectic" (as a friend e-mailed me earlier today), but was really just the speech of forceful conviction.

I'm with Utah Dan that Elder Holland's "if you're dumb enough to reject this evidence, you've been deceived" argument is a little unfair to the conscientious and studious critic, but it's probably fair retaliation to the "if you're dumb enough to believe this Book of Mormon, you're a mindless sheep" rhetoric that anti-mormons spout all the time.

Finally, his beginning was especially touching for me, although perhaps not in accordance with his intentions. He said:

Think of the heart as the figurative center of our faith, the poetic location of our loyalties and our values, and then consider Jesus’ declaration that, in the last days, men’s hearts shall fail them.

If we think of it this way, my "heart" has certainly failed me. I dedicated almost all of my remembered life to living an ardent, devout, active LDS lifestyle. I did and didn't do all the right things. I was a full-time and a member-missionary. I've paid tithes & offerings, served in many callings, and tried my best to fulfill my obligations.

But my faith, my loyalties have failed me. More and more, I find myself asking questions and having concerns that the LDS church is unable to resolve. My conceptions of what it means to be a good human being are diverging from what the LDS church teaches us to do. I really do feel like my heart - my faith, my loyalty (but not my values), the teachings of the LDS church - have failed me. Maybe my morass is temporary. Maybe it's a widening split. I don't know where my journey's destination lies, but I'm glad to find inspiration wherever I can.

Elsewhere in this thread, some have complained that this forum sometimes isn't a place where people feel comfortable sharing their beliefs. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I wanted to share my personal experience with this talk in the hope that others will feel comfortable in here with their beliefs and non-beliefs

My thoughts are not intended as a slam on the LDS church or General Conference, but rather to offer an alternative, intensely personal reaction to a conference address. Elder Holland has given me food for thought, and I'm grateful for that.

[Levin]

He believed his own testimony; this makes it very hard to believe that he was a conscious fraud.

But it says nothing about whether the Book itself is true.

[RockyBalboa]

I finally got a chance to hear it - it's a great speech. I really enjoyed listening to it. Even if I don't agree with everything he said, I'm not his target audience. I was disappointed that his "yelling" wasn't "apoplectic" (as a friend e-mailed me earlier today), but was really just the speech of forceful conviction.

I'm with Utah Dan that Elder Holland's "if you're dumb enough to reject this evidence, you've been deceived" argument is a little unfair to the conscientious and studious critic, but it's probably fair retaliation to the "if you're dumb enough to believe this Book of Mormon, you're a mindless sheep" rhetoric that anti-mormons spout all the time.

Finally, his beginning was especially touching for me, although perhaps not in accordance with his intentions. He said:

If we think of it this way, my "heart" has certainly failed me. I dedicated almost all of my remembered life to living an ardent, devout, active LDS lifestyle. I did and didn't do all the right things. I was a full-time and a member-missionary. I've paid tithes & offerings, served in many callings, and tried my best to fulfill my obligations.

But my faith, my loyalties have failed me. More and more, I find myself asking questions and having concerns that the LDS church is unable to resolve. My conceptions of what it means to be a good human being are diverging from what the LDS church teaches us to do. I really do feel like my heart - my faith, my loyalty (but not my values), the teachings of the LDS church - have failed me. Maybe my morass is temporary. Maybe it's a widening split. I don't know where my journey's destination lies, but I'm glad to find inspiration wherever I can.

Elsewhere in this thread, some have complained that this forum sometimes isn't a place where people feel comfortable sharing their beliefs. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but I wanted to share my personal experience with this talk in the hope that others will feel comfortable in here with their beliefs and non-beliefs

My thoughts are not intended as a slam on the LDS church or General Conference, but rather to offer an alternative, intensely personal reaction to a conference address. Elder Holland has given me food for thought, and I'm grateful for that.

The best post in this thread. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings on the matter.

[RockyBalboa]

One additional comment on trolling. If a person comes on here and states an opinion that is either very conservative or very liberal, it could be called trolling as we know how the other side will react.

While you're certainly right about that, SU's been around long enough and performed his schtick long enough that his is especially obvious.