Having faith vs. being religious

[ERCougar]

Here's how I see it:

The Celestial Kingdom is a community of people who work together in consecration. There is perfect love, harmony, sharing, and caring for each other's needs.

The gospel on earth is designed to steer people in that direction. Christ of course made it possible for man to be redeemed and live forever, but mankind is who works for each other's salvation: mankind does missionary work. Mankind performs the saving ordinances. Mankind sacrifices his tithes and offerings. Mankind takes the time to give priesthood blessings to others. Mankind builds the meetinghouses and temples. Mankind prepares the lessons and teaches one another.

In a sense, our salvation comes through how refined we become while actively preparing our selves, our families, our neighbors, and all involved towards their aggregate salvation(s).

Therefore, while a person may strive to live a peaceable and righteous life while having gospel harmony in his home, not involving himself in a gospel community concept robs him of valuable, celestial-type experiences like accepting all people and overlooking their faults, their imperfections, their racism and bigotry; while being forgiving, understanding, welcoming, connecting with them and sharing all that you have learned; being a candle on a hill sharing your good example with them.

And believe me when I say I struggle with church attendance myself, and I find myself getting further and further away from the "ward family" feeling that I used to have in my life.

Wow, Fiyero. Nicely said.

I was going to say that I think the question is akin to the difference between being intelligent/wise and being educated. I think it's possible to be intelligent/wise, but not quite to the degree of someone who is also educated. It's definitely possible to be educated and not intelligent/wise. To me, church is like school--it enables me to stand on the shoulders of others, to learn from other's experiences, to progress faster and further than if I just went at it alone. Beyond that, there are the benefits that Fiyero points out above.

Again, great post, Fiyero.

[Tick's wife]

Gee.... thanks falafel... .


I don't know you very well, Tick's wife, but my impression is that you're a pretty practical person. I'm going way out on a limb and guessing here (so please correct me where I'm wrong), but I'm wondering if the church has worked for you practically in the past but it isn't working for you practically now. Additionally, you seem to have (still guessing) some pretty specific issues/events that you're mad about. The fact that you don't feel like you're personally benefitting practically from your religion (guessing, guessing, guessing) PLUS these specific issues has brought you to a crisis point in your life??? You're asking new questions and wondering which path to take?????

FWIW (which probably isn't much), here is practical thought for a practical(?) person. Often organized religions try to tell people what they can and can't believe. This makes it intimidating for people to make their OWN decisions about what to believe. Therefore most people are guilty of allowing others' opinions of themselves, God, religion, faith etc. to define their beliefs for them. Maybe you'd enjoy allowing YOURSELF to make a written list of exactly what it is that YOU believe with the confidence that you're okay in God's eyes no matter what you write. It might also be a worthwhile to make a list of exactly what you're angry about concerning "religion." My guess is that you can have the confidence that right now God is okay with your anger/frustration and is more interested in developing a positive relationship with you than he is interested in making sure your friends/family and support and agree with your view of "religion."

Ummm... that being said.... please remember that I hardly know you or your situation and that I acknowledge that my thoughts/ideas may not be at all applicable.

What do YOU believe?
What (specifically) are you angry/upset about?

good on yah! That's about me in a nutshell....very practical and trying to figure things out. The church has worked for me in the past and I hope it will continue to work for me but since my last calling, it has been a struggle (YW)....I quit....yes, I quit.......I did what many want to do but don't...my daughter was in YW with me and I had a very hard time teaching her that something is 'wrong' when she was the product of that 'wrong' doing, according to the YW manuel...looks like I have a lot of soul searching to do.

[Tick's wife]

Depending on how you define faith and religion, it can be done very easily and simply.

If you are asking this from the LDS perspective, as has been mentioned, the religious organization offers saving ordinances essential to salvation and exaltation. While your faith is always independent of such ordinances, it is a necessary but not sufficient condition to return to God. Likewise, the ordinances offered by the religious organization are necessary but insufficient. The coin needs both sides to remain a coin, They are integral to its very existence. Similarly, faith and those things the religious organization offers you, with the authority of God, are both integrally essential to your salvation.

how can it be necessary yet insufficient...is that like having a gallbladder but not needing it?

[Tick's wife]

You can. I am.

How do you do it?

[TripletDaddy]

one wrinkle I will add to this thread (btw tick's wife, thanks for starting this thread, it is an interesting read)........don't confuse that which Church doctrine officially requires us to do and that which local members/culture think we should do.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to not be surprised nor offended when fellow members do or say stupid things. I have found that most of us mean well, but we all fall short and, in our zeal, state things as fact that are really only opinion.

Perhaps the greatest advice I ever received was from my best friend's older brother. I was thinking about joining the Church but was having some last second thoughts. He told me, "Don't judge the Church by its members. At first, this struck me as odd advice, since I would expect a good tree to put forth good fruit. But upon deeper reflection, and after years of life as a Mormon, I can indeed see the wisdom in his statement. Do NOT judge the Church by its members.

[Tick's wife]

one wrinkle I will add to this thread (btw tick's wife, thanks for starting this thread, it is an interesting read)........don't confuse that which Church doctrine officially requires us to do and that which local members/culture think we should do.

The best thing you can do for yourself is to not be surprised nor offended when fellow members do or say stupid things. I have found that most of us mean well, but we all fall short and, in our zeal, state things as fact that are really only opinion.

Perhaps the greatest advice I ever received was from my best friend's older brother. I was thinking about joining the Church but was having some last second thoughts. He told me, "Don't judge the Church by its members. At first, this struck me as odd advice, since I would expect a good tree to put forth good fruit. But upon deeper reflection, and after years of life as a Mormon, I can indeed see the wisdom in his statement. Do NOT judge the Church by its members.

Which members though? Surely GA's make mistakes too, afterall, they are human , just as I am. How can we be like God? He is all knowing and grand. How can we strive to be like him when it will never happen. No one can be God. He is the creator of all things, I can't and don't want to do that....I would not want to know all things...TMI..yet again, lots of soul searching coming my way....

[Indy Coug]

How can we be like God? He is all knowing and grand. How can we strive to be like him when it will never happen. No one can be God. He is the creator of all things, I can't and don't want to do that....I would not want to know all things...TMI..yet again, lots of soul searching coming my way....

Can't God make you like God? Are you limiting what He can do?

[Tick's wife]

Can't God make you like God? Are you limiting what He can do?

Just like you can't have more than one cook in the kitchen, you can't have more than one God....

Why would other members or the bishopric care about what my relationship with God is when it only matters between God and I? We're told we have free agency yet we have to check in? I don't get it anymore....

Here is another one, I don't believe it when it is dry council Sunday and a member gets up there and says that the SP sends his love and prays for each and everyone of us, I don't believe it...and I'm tired of pple getting up and saying "I'm thankful for this opportunity to speak today"... personally I don't know anyone who is thankful for speaking...

uggg! I should sleep on this..

[wuapinmon]

Having said all of this, I foresee the entrance of Rosebud into this discussion.

Maybe this will help:

[Indy Coug]

Just like you can't have more than one cook in the kitchen, you can't have more than one God....

Says who? I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you have beliefs that are in contradiction with fundamental LDS doctrines of the Atonement and about what our relationship to God is and how we fit into His plan for us.

[Non Sequitur]

I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I'm trying to get to the bottom of why you have beliefs that are in contradiction with fundamental LDS doctrines of the Atonement and about what our relationship to God is and how we fit into His plan for us.

Some people are not content to believe something just because they have been told to believe it. Some people actually base their beliefs on what makes sense to them and what they feel in their hearts. Is that really such an odd concept?

[Indy Coug]

Some people are not content to believe something just because they have been told to believe it. Some people actually base their beliefs on what makes sense to them and what they feel in their hearts. Is that really such an odd concept?

No, it's not an odd concept. That's how I arrived where I am now.

The impression I initially got from Tick's wife was that she didn't disagree with the fundamental principles of the Gospel, but she was having a difficult time with the people and the institution.

[Non Sequitur]

No, it's not an odd concept. That's how I arrived where I am now.

Well, you're lucky. Not everyone is so fortunate.

[Indy Coug]

Well, you're lucky. Not everyone is so fortunate.

What exactly is your point? I'm just trying to understand her point of view.

[Non Sequitur]

What exactly is your point? I'm just trying to understand her point of view.

I was not being sarcastic. I was sincere when I said you are fortunate. Sadly, most people don't arrive at the place you're at given the same circumstances.