Having faith vs. being religious

[Tick's wife]

Okay, so I posted this on my FB page and am still getting interesting responses and am taking a big risk by posted it here.....

Question: Why can't I just be faithful without having to be religious?

[falafel]

Okay, so I posted this on my FB page and am still getting interesting responses and am taking a big risk by posted it here.....

Question: Why can't I just be faithful without having to be religious?

I'm not sure what the difference is. I assume that you are talking about believing in God vs. organized religion. Is that right?

[Tick's wife]

yup

[falafel]

yup

Well then, this is a loaded question!

First of all, I would say I guess it depends on the context of your question. For most LDS, the two cannot be separated. Therefore, any move outside of organized religion (i.e., THE religion) is a move away from being "faithful." What I'm trying to say is that I think the LDS answer is: you can't. But I don't know if that's THE answer. I just think that's the canonical answer.

[Tick's wife]

Well then, this is a loaded question!

First of all, I would say I guess it depends on the context of your question. For most LDS, the two cannot be separated. Therefore, any move outside of organized religion (i.e., THE religion) is a move away from being "faithful." What I'm trying to say is that I think the LDS answer is: you can't. But I don't know if that's THE answer. I just think that's the canonical answer.

How can the two not be seperated....there are many pple outside the THE church that have a tremendous amount of faith and are more spiritual than many, yet not very 'religious'. I guess I am not explaining it very well. If Jesus died for our sins why does the church make us 'prove' ourselves with callings, attendance, temple trips, voting a certain way, being a certain way....I thought a relationship between Heavenly Father and a person was between HF and that person and not HF, the person, and the 'church'....
Does that make sense?

[falafel]

How can the two not be seperated....there are many pple outside the THE church that have a tremendous amount of faith and are more spiritual than many, yet not very 'religious'. I guess I am not explaining it very well. If Jesus died for our sins why does the church make us 'prove' ourselves with callings, attendance, temple trips, voting a certain way, being a certain way....I thought a relationship between Heavenly Father and a person was between HF and that person and not HF, the person, and the 'church'....
Does that make sense?

It absolutely makes sense. To clarify, I'm not trying to give you an authoritative answer, because I don't have one. Certainly there are people outside the Church that can be considered faithful and spiritual and never set foot inside any church/mosque/cathedral/temple.

However, if you are trying to approach this from the LDS perspective, I think the answer is that you can't believe completely in the Church and exercise full faith (whatever that means) without participating in the religion itself. The Church preaches that the Church is not just a religion, it is the Kingdom of God on earth. Either you're in the kingdom (the Church), or you're out. That's my take, anyway. I'm sure others will jump in.

Oh, and what does the Church have to do with voting? Unless you're talking about Prop 8, I've never heard the Church tell anyone how to vote (I would argue that the Church didn't tell anyone how to vote on Prop 8 either, or at least they didn't make it a condition of worthiness).

[Tick's wife]

It absolutely makes sense. To clarify, I'm not trying to give you an authoritative answer, because I don't have one. Certainly there are people outside the Church that can be considered faithful and spiritual and never set foot inside any church/mosque/cathedral/temple.

However, if you are trying to approach this from the LDS perspective, I think the answer is that you can't believe completely in the Church and exercise full faith (whatever that means) without participating in the religion itself. The Church preaches that the Church is not just a religion, it is the Kingdom of God on earth. Either you're in the kingdom (the Church), or you're out. That's my take, anyway. I'm sure others will jump in.

Oh, and what does the Church have to do with voting? Unless you're talking about Prop 8, I've never heard the Church tell anyone how to vote (I would argue that the Church didn't tell anyone how to vote on Prop 8 either, or at least they didn't make it a condition of worthiness).

Oh, you don't know our SP...we got told over the pulpit how to vote on Prop 8 but I don't want to go there, it is too much to deal with....

I think I see what you are trying to say and the Church is a way of life but what if you don't agree with something or what if you question something....it seems to be a bad thing to ask questions. I get confused when we hear one thing over the pulpit or GA and then something else later...let me think on this some more...I'm sure Tick will chime in for sure.

[FMCoug]

How can the two not be seperated....there are many pple outside the THE church that have a tremendous amount of faith and are more spiritual than many, yet not very 'religious'. I guess I am not explaining it very well. If Jesus died for our sins why does the church make us 'prove' ourselves with callings, attendance, temple trips, voting a certain way, being a certain way....I thought a relationship between Heavenly Father and a person was between HF and that person and not HF, the person, and the 'church'....
Does that make sense?

I think you're confusing participation in church from the standpoint of saving ordinances and what I would call "Mormon culture". As a believing LDS, I do think God wants me to go to church every week, partake of the sacrament, serve in the church, go to the temple, etc.

However, the above has nothing to do with funeral potatoes, making crafts, being best briends with everyone in the ward, having the same social/political views as other members, dressing the same, etc.

[falafel]

Oh, you don't know our SP...we got told over the pulpit how to vote on Prop 8 but I don't want to go there, it is too much to deal with....

I think I see what you are trying to say and the Church is a way of life but what if you don't agree with something or what if you question something....it seems to be a bad thing to ask questions. I get confused when we hear one thing over the pulpit or GA and then something else later...let me think on this some more...I'm sure Tick will chime in for sure.

There are some very good discussions on this board about deciding for one's self what teachings apply to you and what teachings are meant for someone else. At the end of the day, the Church is meant to enhance our personal relationship with God. That should be the emphasis, IMO. LDS teachings have shifted and morphed over the years, so its clear that not everything is set in stone. Any difficult issues in your life should be approached as a discussion between you and God, with the local leaders as a support system when needed (this is just my opinion). In this sense, I think you can be very faithful without being very religious at all.

Having said all of this, I foresee the entrance of Rosebud into this discussion.

[Slim]

I'd say I'm religious but I have no faith.

[Fiyero]

Here's how I see it:

The Celestial Kingdom is a community of people who work together in consecration. There is perfect love, harmony, sharing, and caring for each other's needs.

The gospel on earth is designed to steer people in that direction. Christ of course made it possible for man to be redeemed and live forever, but mankind is who works for each other's salvation: mankind does missionary work. Mankind performs the saving ordinances. Mankind sacrifices his tithes and offerings. Mankind takes the time to give priesthood blessings to others. Mankind builds the meetinghouses and temples. Mankind prepares the lessons and teaches one another.

In a sense, our salvation comes through how refined we become while actively preparing our selves, our families, our neighbors, and all involved towards their aggregate salvation(s).

Therefore, while a person may strive to live a peaceable and righteous life while having gospel harmony in his home, not involving himself in a gospel community concept robs him of valuable, celestial-type experiences like accepting all people and overlooking their faults, their imperfections, their racism and bigotry; while being forgiving, understanding, welcoming, connecting with them and sharing all that you have learned; being a candle on a hill sharing your good example with them.

And believe me when I say I struggle with church attendance myself, and I find myself getting further and further away from the "ward family" feeling that I used to have in my life.

[Indy Coug]

Okay, so I posted this on my FB page and am still getting interesting responses and am taking a big risk by posted it here.....

Question: Why can't I just be faithful without having to be religious?

First you would need to explain what "faithful" and "religious" means. I'm presuming you are trying to ask if you can believe without actually doing anything within an organized religious framework.

If so, then I ask these questions rhetorically, so I'm not expecting you to answer this in the thread, but are you "faithful" to the covenants you have already made with God? Don't those covenants require you to be an active part of the church (i.e. "religious") He established to further His purposes? Can you in good conscience claim you can truly be one without the other?

I think these are questions you need to ask and answer for yourself. Personally, I believe they go hand in hand.

[Viking]

Okay, so I posted this on my FB page and am still getting interesting responses and am taking a big risk by posted it here.....

Question: Why can't I just be faithful without having to be religious?

You can. I am.

[Rosebud]

There are some very good discussions on this board about deciding for one's self what teachings apply to you and what teachings are meant for someone else. At the end of the day, the Church is meant to enhance our personal relationship with God. That should be the emphasis, IMO. LDS teachings have shifted and morphed over the years, so its clear that not everything is set in stone. Any difficult issues in your life should be approached as a discussion between you and God, with the local leaders as a support system when needed (this is just my opinion). In this sense, I think you can be very faithful without being very religious at all.

Having said all of this, I foresee the entrance of Rosebud into this discussion.

Gee.... thanks falafel... .


I don't know you very well, Tick's wife, but my impression is that you're a pretty practical person. I'm going way out on a limb and guessing here (so please correct me where I'm wrong), but I'm wondering if the church has worked for you practically in the past but it isn't working for you practically now. Additionally, you seem to have (still guessing) some pretty specific issues/events that you're mad about. The fact that you don't feel like you're personally benefitting practically from your religion (guessing, guessing, guessing) PLUS these specific issues has brought you to a crisis point in your life??? You're asking new questions and wondering which path to take?????

FWIW (which probably isn't much), here is practical thought for a practical(?) person. Often organized religions try to tell people what they can and can't believe. This makes it intimidating for people to make their OWN decisions about what to believe. Therefore most people are guilty of allowing others' opinions of themselves, God, religion, faith etc. to define their beliefs for them. Maybe you'd enjoy allowing YOURSELF to make a written list of exactly what it is that YOU believe with the confidence that you're okay in God's eyes no matter what you write. It might also be a worthwhile to make a list of exactly what you're angry about concerning "religion." My guess is that you can have the confidence that right now God is okay with your anger/frustration and is more interested in developing a positive relationship with you than he is interested in making sure your friends/family and support and agree with your view of "religion."

Ummm... that being said.... please remember that I hardly know you or your situation and that I acknowledge that my thoughts/ideas may not be at all applicable.

What do YOU believe?
What (specifically) are you angry/upset about?

[creekster]

Depending on how you define faith and religion, it can be done very easily and simply.

If you are asking this from the LDS perspective, as has been mentioned, the religious organization offers saving ordinances essential to salvation and exaltation. While your faith is always independent of such ordinances, it is a necessary but not sufficient condition to return to God. Likewise, the ordinances offered by the religious organization are necessary but insufficient. The coin needs both sides to remain a coin, They are integral to its very existence. Similarly, faith and those things the religious organization offers you, with the authority of God, are both integrally essential to your salvation.