Seriious question for 3D

[RobinFinderson]

Nice work DDD.

[BigFatMeanie]

Fresco is authentic Italian cuisine. It's menu is most always from the northern regions, but every so often it offers a dish from the southern region.

I've heard good things about Bacci, but have yet to eat there. Like steaks, I just prefer to cook at home than eat out. Granato's is a great market that imports all the good stuff to make authentic meals.

I believe that if one is going to go eat at Olive Garden, they should save some money and go buy a flat of Spaghettios.

I've always enjoyed Cucina Toscana (in the same building as Caputos downtown).

Tiburon gets some good press and their Elk dish is very good but the menu is very static. Once you've eaten there a few times you get bored.

SLC has the usual suspects in steak houses - Flemings, Ruths Chris, Shulas, etc.

DDD is correct that the best food cities are the port cities. That being said, I don't see anyone trying to compare SLC to the "great food cities" in the US. Good grief - most of those great food cities are at least 10 times the size of SLC. SLC is a decent food city for its size.

[ERCougar]

My take on the food scene in Utah is that overall, it is really lacking.

However, I think that there are some things that are noteworthy. Also, when I say that the food scene is lacking, that doesn't mean that everything you eat there is gross. You can still eat good food in Utah if you look closely. You just aren't going to eat great food.

First, your question seems to focus on higher-end dining. Chow, for example.....Utah has nothing that is similar to Chow in terms of concept or execution. The closest thing that I have ever seen in Utah to Chow was Bacci, but that is only if you stretch your imagination and squint both eyes.

All the Gastronomy places in SLC are upper-end dining for Utah, but in metro areas these places would be an average restaurant. Yesterday we met up with my FIL and my UIL. They took us to eat at Market Street Grill. The MSG had a Zagat 24 ranking on their window. There is no way MSG would get a Z24 in, say...LA or SF. I have thought that the New Yorker is a good chop house, nice place for prime beef.

The 4 biggest deficiencies for Utah cuisine (keep in mind these are my observations, no way to empirically prove these and I could be way off base):

1. Lack of demand. For the most part, Utahns love to eat crap. They eat casseroles with ground beef. They eat cream of chicken soup. They eat Mimis Cafe and Olive Garden. They eat Teriyaki Stix. There is no pent up demand for concept food. The few examples of haute portions (LaCaille, for example..which is an awful meal) are always met with derision...."the portions are so small!" For a food scene to thrive, there needs to be a substantial base of consumers that view food as art, not just as utility. Also, higher end dining is pricey. There just are not enough people to justify multiple high-end restaurants. And without multiple restaurants, you are never going to establish a scene.

2. Local ingredients....it is not a coincidence that the best food cities in the country are also port cities...New York, San Francisco, New Orleans, Houston, LA, Seattle. The lone exceptions to that would be Chicago and Las Vegas (more on vegas in a minute). SLC is hampered by a lack of local ingredients. There is no artisenal scene in Utah. Also, the wine scene is awful, as well, and we all know why. The latter 2 are key because budding chefs as well as established chefs thrive on pairing food with wine, cheese, and dessert. All the best places generally employ a key sommelier, artisan, and patissier. Again, the concept of one meal consisting of a series of flavors to cover the entire palate. The chef views the food as art over a series of acts. When was the last time you went to a really nice restaurant that did not have dessert? Or a wine list?

3. Lack of diversity....the great eating cities, as mentioned above, are also cities of color. The fusion movement that swept over the US in the late 80s through the 90s was the result of Euro Chefs coming here (Wolfgang Puck really is the father of modern fusion food) and blending traditional euro styles with asian, latin, and creole styles. Places like NYC, SF, New Orleans, LA, and to a lesser extent, Seattle and Houston were natural incubators for concept foods, given the lage asian, creole, and hispanic populations. Utah is a great bastion of whiteness. Much of what passes for ethnic food is really just the american take on that particular ethnicity. This is true even when an ethic person owns the restaurant. For example, are there real chinese places in Utah? Not really. At least I haven't seen one. There are places that sell American chinese food, such as the Mandarin, but I have yet to see an authentic dim sum joint. A good litmus test.....can you order sweet and sour pork? If you can, it isn't a real chinese place like in Chinatown, where dead ducks hang in the window.

4. Suburban sprawl vs Urban density.....again, consider the traditional eating epicenters in our country....all of them, without exception, have large, densely and diversely populated urban centers. People eat out more at local neighborhood places because there are no massive supermarkets. As such, the local food scene must either thrive or die. In Utah, there is a huge Albertsons or Super Target everywhere. there is no need for lots of local neighborhood restaurants to pop up when each main town is anchored by a strip mall that has a Wal Mart and 2 or 3 chain places. Again, couple this sprawl with the fact that there isnt really a demand for food anyway, and your food scene is doomed from the start. This final point is why I have a hard time putting Vegas on my list. Donut and I have a good time going back and forth over this.

Vegas is a great place to get a delicious meal by world class chefs. but Vegas has done it artificially. Like everything else, Vegas has imported chefs, they fly in ingredients every single day, they recreate legendary eateries in the lobbies of hotels, etc...all because they can. But once you leave the strip, there is little of note to eat in Vegas. There are some exceptions...Donut turned me on to this amazing place just West of the strip (on Sahara, I think), but for the most part, Vegas thrives because it has the cash and tourism to build an artificial food scene, despite facing all the same barriers that Utah does. Technically, it doesnt matter to most, but I guess it does to me.

I think overall, the best eating cities have grown organically, with local talent using local resources to meet local demands. Look at some of the stronger points of interest in Utah...they all meet this description....the mole sauces at red iguana. The harlem with steak sauce at Gandolfos. Simple pleasures that are done well and done right.

But to answer your question, I think that for the most part, you dont go to Utah to eat something interesting. At least not interesting by comparison. Personally, I would love for the food to improve there because I visit so often.

I'm not really sure how to multi-quote this so I'll do it this way:

1) Agreed. Although this is changing slightly, you are never going to have the high demand for high end food in a Mormon-dominated culture.

2) Completely and totally disagree. Well, just almost completely disagree. I mentioned this before, but Gourmet magazine just rated SLC as one of the top ten new food cities a couple of months ago. In the write-up, they mentioned SLC's biggest strength is the local food suppliers, specifically locally-produced cheeses and breads. I obviously can't comment on the wine lists, but I do have friends that are very happy in SLC specifically because of the liquor system. I have no idea how this applies to restaurants, but my friends love having the liquor stores, as they make it much easier to get exactly what they want.

3) Completely agree, and this is my biggest complaint about SLC--the lack of good ethnic food. I'm not a big high food person, as like every mormon, it truly pains me not to get a good deal, but I love ethnic food, and with the exception of Mexican food, SLC doesn't have a lot to offer.

4) Agreed as well. SLC just doesn't feel like a big city yet. That probably draws some here, but it certainly lacks the big city feel where so many great food scenes reside.

EDIT: Oh, and Fresco is an outstanding Italian restaurant. That's where my wife and I ate when we got engaged.
Another thing--I'm not a huge fan of the gastronomy restaurants. They're good but I think there are better in SLC. MSG probably has the best seafood in town, but SLC's not where you come for seafood anyway.

2nd EDIT: I just looked up MSG on zagats...it's a 23.

[TripletDaddy]

2) Completely and totally disagree. Well, just almost completely disagree. I mentioned this before, but Gourmet magazine just rated SLC as one of the top ten new food cities a couple of months ago. In the write-up, they mentioned SLC's biggest strength is the local food suppliers, specifically locally-produced cheeses and breads. I obviously can't comment on the wine lists, but I do have friends that are very happy in SLC specifically because of the liquor system. I have no idea how this applies to restaurants, but my friends love having the liquor stores, as they make it much easier to get exactly what they want.

Again, SU's question was focused on high-end dining...does Utah have anything to compare with the fusion/concept places of larger metro areas.

I don't doubt that Gourmet mag listed SLC, but if the list is Top 10 "new" food cities, I have to wonder...how indiscriminate is that list? I can only really name of 4 or 5 world class eating cities in the country in total, let alone conceive of a list of 10 new ones in the past year.

I am not sure how versed you are in ranking food cities, so I may be telling you stuff you likely already know, but some of the more common metrics would be Zagat rankings (the least reliable of the bunch since they are all user submitted), James Beard awards, Michelin distinctions (there are currently only 4 Michelin cities in the US), and Relais Chateaux listings. I think rags like Gourmet, esquire, Bon Apetit are also useful, so I don't discount them, but they generally are not going to be overly persuasive.

My take on the SLC ranking as a top new food city....it is merely announcing it as a place that others may not have considered.

More telling than Gourmet mag.....any new chefs moving to Utah to take advantage of the ingredients there? My guess is likely no, at least not yet.

I think the strenght of the Utah food scene is not going to be found in trying to replicate haute concepts from other cities. I don't think you will ever see anyone in SLC successfully open a place like "Moto" in Chicago (google it, it will blow your mind) or the RAW movement in Los Angeles. That is ok, though. I think the power of Utah food will be in the mom and pop stuff....the local places that can survive the suffocation of the chain restaurants that permeate every power center and strip mall. And that is great.....it doesnt have to be expensive to be delicious. Just make sure it is done well.

[TripletDaddy]

2nd EDIT: I just looked up MSG on zagats...it's a 23.

Yeah, that is my point. That means that the majority of people sending in reviews for MSG are saying that it is very good.

imo, a Z23-Z25 should be a very remarkable meal.

Z26-Z29 is somewhere in the "amazing, holy crap" area.

I have never even seen a Z30. I am not even sure they exist.

[Jeff Lebowski]

DDD is correct that the best food cities are the port cities. That being said, I don't see anyone trying to compare SLC to the "great food cities" in the US. Good grief - most of those great food cities are at least 10 times the size of SLC. SLC is a decent food city for its size.

Bingo.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yeah, that is my point. That means that the majority of people sending in reviews for MSG are saying that it is very good.

I was never that impressed with MSG.

[TripletDaddy]

I've always enjoyed Cucina Toscana (in the same building as Caputos downtown).

Tiburon gets some good press and their Elk dish is very good but the menu is very static. Once you've eaten there a few times you get bored.

SLC has the usual suspects in steak houses - Flemings, Ruths Chris, Shulas, etc.

DDD is correct that the best food cities are the port cities. That being said, I don't see anyone trying to compare SLC to the "great food cities" in the US. Good grief - most of those great food cities are at least 10 times the size of SLC. SLC is a decent food city for its size.

Yeah, I tried to indicate that SU's question seemed to focus on higher-end concept places, as he busted out Wild Ginger in Seattle as a frame of reference.

I also didnt do a good job at saying that you can still get good food in Utah.

This is why I will likely never be a professional food critic. Sloppy writing.

[TripletDaddy]

I was never that impressed with MSG.

I think it is just a normal place to go grab some dinner. It is good, don't get me wrong.

I don't quite get why some consider it to be one of the best places to eat in SLC (I have heard that before, on multiple occasions).

Frankly, it reminds me almost of a diner. Maybe because the floor is all white tiled and there is booth seating all along the perimeter.

We went yesterday and had french toast for lunch. It was good.

[Jeff Lebowski]

1. Lack of demand. For the most part, Utahns love to eat crap. They eat casseroles with ground beef. They eat cream of chicken soup. They eat Mimis Cafe and Olive Garden. They eat Teriyaki Stix. There is no pent up demand for concept food. The few examples of haute portions (LaCaille, for example..which is an awful meal) are always met with derision...."the portions are so small!" For a food scene to thrive, there needs to be a substantial base of consumers that view food as art, not just as utility. Also, higher end dining is pricey. There just are not enough people to justify multiple high-end restaurants. And without multiple restaurants, you are never going to establish a scene.

This part made me laugh and cry. Laugh because it sounds like such ridiculously over-the-top stereotyping. Cry because there is a lot of truth to it.

[il Padrino Ute]

I think the power of Utah food will be in the mom and pop stuff....the local places that can survive the suffocation of the chain restaurants that permeate every power center and strip mall. And that is great.....it doesnt have to be expensive to be delicious. Just make sure it is done well.

Like, for instance, El Farol.

[il Padrino Ute]

Also, DDD, the more I think about it, you are correct about the lack of haute portions in SLC. Folks here are more practical. When I go to eat, I want to not be hungry afterward. For me, food is not artistic. It's sustenance. And dammit, if I'm going to pay good money for something to eat, it better be worth it.

Another reason the high-end scene doesn't work well here is because there really is a lack of superficiality here. There seems to be too much trendiness in those places and I prefer not to be a part of it.

Unless, of course, Brooks Robinson is there. Then I'd kill a server and steal his or her uniform just to be a part of it.

[ERCougar]

I think it is just a normal place to go grab some dinner. It is good, don't get me wrong.

I don't quite get why some consider it to be one of the best places to eat in SLC (I have heard that before, on multiple occasions).

Frankly, it reminds me almost of a diner. Maybe because the floor is all white tiled and there is booth seating all along the perimeter.

We went yesterday and had french toast for lunch. It was good.

The people I know who like MSG are those who are somewhat wealthy, not very into food, but go to the place that their other wealthy friends go to. I really like their chowder but that's about it, and it doesn't hold a candle to real seafood in a port city.

My favorite food city is Chicago. I don't claim that SLC is Chicago (or LA or NY or even Seattle) by any means. I do get a little tired of those who complain about SLC not having any good restaurants. I realize this isn't what you're saying, I'm just sensitive to the stereotype, likely because we Utahns have to listen to so many come here and then non-stop complain about how little we have to offer them. For a town its size, I think SLC has a pretty good restaurant scene, one that's dramatically improved over what I had in high school twenty years ago. For the most part, people who complain about SLC food scene are judging its scene twenty years ago (when incidentally, gastronomy restaurants were the best SLC had to offer).

I completely agree that for me, the biggest shortcoming in SLC is the lack of ethnic food, particularly Asian food. In that regard, we're particularly lacking, even for a town our size.

[TripletDaddy]

The people I know who like MSG are those who are somewhat wealthy, not very into food, but go to the place that their other wealthy friends go to. I really like their chowder but that's about it, and it doesn't hold a candle to real seafood in a port city.

My favorite food city is Chicago. I don't claim that SLC is Chicago (or LA or NY or even Seattle) by any means. I do get a little tired of those who complain about SLC not having any good restaurants. I realize this isn't what you're saying, I'm just sensitive to the stereotype, likely because we Utahns have to listen to so many come here and then non-stop complain about how little we have to offer them. For a town its size, I think SLC has a pretty good restaurant scene, one that's dramatically improved over what I had in high school twenty years ago. For the most part, people who complain about SLC food scene are judging its scene twenty years ago (when incidentally, gastronomy restaurants were the best SLC had to offer).

I completely agree that for me, the biggest shortcoming in SLC is the lack of ethnic food, particularly Asian food. In that regard, we're particularly lacking, even for a town our size.

I think Chicago is in my Top 3 cities in the country. A really great place to eat food.

NYC, SF, Chicago, New Orleans.

[ERCougar]

Also, DDD, the more I think about it, you are correct about the lack of haute portions in SLC. Folks here are more practical. When I go to eat, I want to not be hungry afterward. For me, food is not artistic. It's sustenance. And dammit, if I'm going to pay good money for something to eat, it better be worth it.

Another reason the high-end scene doesn't work well here is because there really is a lack of superficiality here. There seems to be too much trendiness in those places and I prefer not to be a part of it.

Unless, of course, Brooks Robinson is there. Then I'd kill a server and steal his or her uniform just to be a part of it.

I think he's absolutely right on this--the cheapskate, value-for-your-money sentiment runs deep in our folk. I think it's the same reason we don't dress well either. It's expensive to look good.