Seriious question for 3D

[SeattleUte]

Is there a really good restaurant in all of Utah? I'm talking Harvest vine or Wild Ginger good, not necessarily Mr. Chow or New York good.

[smokymountainrain]

Is there a really good restaurant in all of Utah? I'm talking Harvest vine or Wild Ginger good, not necessarily Mr. Chow or New York good.

There has to be one Wild Ginger good, as that is one of the more overrated restaurants in Seattle. I haven't found one yet, but if not, Utah's restaurants are even more pathetic than I imagined.

[SeattleUte]

There has to be one Wild Ginger good, as that is one of the more overrated restaurants in Seattle. I haven't found one yet, but if not, Utah's restaurants are even more pathetic than I imagined.

So it should be easy. Name one in Utah that is that good.

[smokymountainrain]

So it should be easy. Name one in Utah that is that good.

I know it should be easy, but I haven't been back here from Seattle long enough to have found one. There may not be one that good, but I refuse to believe it.

I try to avoid eating out as often as possible.

[il Padrino Ute]

For Italian cuisine, Fresco is excellent.

Mazza is great for Lebanese.

I rarely eat at restaurants. I can do a steak at my house that is far superior to anything from any place, including alleged top steakhouses.

[SeattleUte]

There's a reason I asked 3D this question.

[il Padrino Ute]

There's a reason I asked 3D this question.

Are you saying that you and DDD are the only people capable of knowing good food?

I gave you a name of two places. Before you scoff, have the guts to eat at both places.

[SeattleUte]

I know 3D likes to eat out a lot. And I know we like the same kind of stuff. You and smoky don't eat out and you're going on telling me what's good and what's overrated and what's not as good as your own food.

[TripletDaddy]

My take on the food scene in Utah is that overall, it is really lacking.

However, I think that there are some things that are noteworthy. Also, when I say that the food scene is lacking, that doesn't mean that everything you eat there is gross. You can still eat good food in Utah if you look closely. You just aren't going to eat great food.

First, your question seems to focus on higher-end dining. Chow, for example.....Utah has nothing that is similar to Chow in terms of concept or execution. The closest thing that I have ever seen in Utah to Chow was Bacci, but that is only if you stretch your imagination and squint both eyes.

All the Gastronomy places in SLC are upper-end dining for Utah, but in metro areas these places would be an average restaurant. Yesterday we met up with my FIL and my UIL. They took us to eat at Market Street Grill. The MSG had a Zagat 24 ranking on their window. There is no way MSG would get a Z24 in, say...LA or SF. I have thought that the New Yorker is a good chop house, nice place for prime beef.

The 4 biggest deficiencies for Utah cuisine (keep in mind these are my observations, no way to empirically prove these and I could be way off base):

1. Lack of demand. For the most part, Utahns love to eat crap. They eat casseroles with ground beef. They eat cream of chicken soup. They eat Mimis Cafe and Olive Garden. They eat Teriyaki Stix. There is no pent up demand for concept food. The few examples of haute portions (LaCaille, for example..which is an awful meal) are always met with derision...."the portions are so small!" For a food scene to thrive, there needs to be a substantial base of consumers that view food as art, not just as utility. Also, higher end dining is pricey. There just are not enough people to justify multiple high-end restaurants. And without multiple restaurants, you are never going to establish a scene.

2. Local ingredients....it is not a coincidence that the best food cities in the country are also port cities...New York, San Francisco, New Orleans, Houston, LA, Seattle. The lone exceptions to that would be Chicago and Las Vegas (more on vegas in a minute). SLC is hampered by a lack of local ingredients. There is no artisenal scene in Utah. Also, the wine scene is awful, as well, and we all know why. The latter 2 are key because budding chefs as well as established chefs thrive on pairing food with wine, cheese, and dessert. All the best places generally employ a key sommelier, artisan, and patissier. Again, the concept of one meal consisting of a series of flavors to cover the entire palate. The chef views the food as art over a series of acts. When was the last time you went to a really nice restaurant that did not have dessert? Or a wine list?

3. Lack of diversity....the great eating cities, as mentioned above, are also cities of color. The fusion movement that swept over the US in the late 80s through the 90s was the result of Euro Chefs coming here (Wolfgang Puck really is the father of modern fusion food) and blending traditional euro styles with asian, latin, and creole styles. Places like NYC, SF, New Orleans, LA, and to a lesser extent, Seattle and Houston were natural incubators for concept foods, given the lage asian, creole, and hispanic populations. Utah is a great bastion of whiteness. Much of what passes for ethnic food is really just the american take on that particular ethnicity. This is true even when an ethic person owns the restaurant. For example, are there real chinese places in Utah? Not really. At least I haven't seen one. There are places that sell American chinese food, such as the Mandarin, but I have yet to see an authentic dim sum joint. A good litmus test.....can you order sweet and sour pork? If you can, it isn't a real chinese place like in Chinatown, where dead ducks hang in the window.

4. Suburban sprawl vs Urban density.....again, consider the traditional eating epicenters in our country....all of them, without exception, have large, densely and diversely populated urban centers. People eat out more at local neighborhood places because there are no massive supermarkets. As such, the local food scene must either thrive or die. In Utah, there is a huge Albertsons or Super Target everywhere. there is no need for lots of local neighborhood restaurants to pop up when each main town is anchored by a strip mall that has a Wal Mart and 2 or 3 chain places. Again, couple this sprawl with the fact that there isnt really a demand for food anyway, and your food scene is doomed from the start. This final point is why I have a hard time putting Vegas on my list. Donut and I have a good time going back and forth over this.

Vegas is a great place to get a delicious meal by world class chefs. but Vegas has done it artificially. Like everything else, Vegas has imported chefs, they fly in ingredients every single day, they recreate legendary eateries in the lobbies of hotels, etc...all because they can. But once you leave the strip, there is little of note to eat in Vegas. There are some exceptions...Donut turned me on to this amazing place just West of the strip (on Sahara, I think), but for the most part, Vegas thrives because it has the cash and tourism to build an artificial food scene, despite facing all the same barriers that Utah does. Technically, it doesnt matter to most, but I guess it does to me.

I think overall, the best eating cities have grown organically, with local talent using local resources to meet local demands. Look at some of the stronger points of interest in Utah...they all meet this description....the mole sauces at red iguana. The harlem with steak sauce at Gandolfos. Simple pleasures that are done well and done right.

But to answer your question, I think that for the most part, you dont go to Utah to eat something interesting. At least not interesting by comparison. Personally, I would love for the food to improve there because I visit so often.

[TripletDaddy]

For Italian cuisine, Fresco is excellent.

Mazza is great for Lebanese.

I rarely eat at restaurants. I can do a steak at my house that is far superior to anything from any place, including alleged top steakhouses.

EPU, I would be interested in trying your italian rec, given you lived in Italy and likely developed a taste for what is authentic vs what is americanized.

Also, my critiques are hairsplits....I am not saying that americanized food taste gross. I am just saying that it isnt authentic.

A breadstick at the Olive Garden tastes pretty good. But it isnt Italian food.

[smokymountainrain]

There's a reason I asked 3D this question.

Fair enough.

That said, I did eat out enough when I lived in Seattle that I feel I can stand by my comment about Wild Ginger.

Carry on...

[il Padrino Ute]

I know 3D likes to eat out a lot. And I know we like the same kind of stuff. You and smoky don't eat out and you're going on telling me what's good and what's overrated and what's not as good as your own food.

Ok, now I understand what you're saying. I don't eat out much, so I don't know a lot of restaurants.

Still, next time you're in SLC, give Fresco a try. On me, even.

[SeattleUte]

My take on the food scene in Utah is that overall, it is really lacking.

However, I think that there are some things that are noteworthy. Also, when I say that the food scene is lacking, that doesn't mean that everything you eat there is gross. You can still eat good food in Utah if you look closely. You just aren't going to eat great food.

First, your question seems to focus on higher-end dining. Chow, for example.....Utah has nothing that is similar to Chow in terms of concept or execution. The closest thing that I have ever seen in Utah to Chow was Bacci, but that is only if you stretch your imagination and squint both eyes.

All the Gastronomy places in SLC are upper-end dining for Utah, but in metro areas these places would be an average restaurant. Yesterday we met up with my FIL and my UIL. They took us to eat at Market Street Grill. The MSG had a Zagat 24 ranking on their window. There is no way MSG would get a Z24 in, say...LA or SF. I have thought that the New Yorker is a good chop house, nice place for prime beef.

The 4 biggest deficiencies for Utah cuisine (keep in mind these are my observations, no way to empirically prove these and I could be way off base):

1. Lack of demand. For the most part, Utahns love to eat crap. They eat casseroles with ground beef. They eat cream of chicken soup. They eat Mimis Cafe and Olive Garden. They eat Teriyaki Stix. There is no pent up demand for concept food. The few examples of haute portions (LaCaille, for example..which is an awful meal) are always met with derision...."the portions are so small!" For a food scene to thrive, there needs to be a substantial base of consumers that view food as art, not just as utility. Also, higher end dining is pricey. There just are not enough people to justify multiple high-end restaurants. And without multiple restaurants, you are never going to establish a scene.

2. Local ingredients....it is not a coincidence that the best food cities in the country are also port cities...New York, San Francisco, New Orleans, Houston, LA, Seattle. The lone exceptions to that would be Chicago and Las Vegas (more on vegas in a minute). SLC is hampered by a lack of local ingredients. There is no artisenal scene in Utah. Also, the wine scene is awful, as well, and we all know why. The latter 2 are key because budding chefs as well as established chefs thrive on pairing food with wine, cheese, and dessert. All the best places generally employ a key sommelier, artisan, and patissier. Again, the concept of one meal consisting of a series of flavors to cover the entire palate. The chef views the food as art over a series of acts. When was the last time you went to a really nice restaurant that did not have dessert? Or a wine list?

3. Lack of diversity....the great eating cities, as mentioned above, are also cities of color. The fusion movement that swept over the US in the late 80s through the 90s was the result of Euro Chefs coming here (Wolfgang Puck really is the father of modern fusion food) and blending traditional euro styles with asian, latin, and creole styles. Places like NYC, SF, New Orleans, LA, and to a lesser extent, Seattle and Houston were natural incubators for concept foods, given the lage asian, creole, and hispanic populations. Utah is a great bastion of whiteness. Much of what passes for ethnic food is really just the american take on that particular ethnicity. This is true even when an ethic person owns the restaurant. For example, are there real chinese places in Utah? Not really. At least I haven't seen one. There are places that sell American chinese food, such as the Mandarin, but I have yet to see an authentic dim sum joint. A good litmus test.....can you order sweet and sour pork? If you can, it isn't a real chinese place like in Chinatown, where dead ducks hang in the window.

4. Suburban sprawl vs Urban density.....again, consider the traditional eating epicenters in our country....all of them, without exception, have large, densely and diversely populated urban centers. People eat out more at local neighborhood places because there are no massive supermarkets. As such, the local food scene must either thrive or die. In Utah, there is a huge Albertsons or Super Target everywhere. there is no need for lots of local neighborhood restaurants to pop up when each main town is anchored by a strip mall that has a Wal Mart and 2 or 3 chain places. Again, couple this sprawl with the fact that there isnt really a demand for food anyway, and your food scene is doomed from the start. This final point is why I have a hard time putting Vegas on my list. Donut and I have a good time going back and forth over this.

Vegas is a great place to get a delicious meal by world class chefs. but Vegas has done it artificially. Like everything else, Vegas has imported chefs, they fly in ingredients every single day, they recreate legendary eateries in the lobbies of hotels, etc...all because they can. But once you leave the strip, there is little of note to eat in Vegas. There are some exceptions...Donut turned me on to this amazing place just West of the strip (on Sahara, I think), but for the most part, Vegas thrives because it has the cash and tourism to build an artificial food scene, despite facing all the same barriers that Utah does. Technically, it doesnt matter to most, but I guess it does to me.

I think overall, the best eating cities have grown organically, with local talent using local resources to meet local demands. Look at some of the stronger points of interest in Utah...they all meet this description....the mole sauces at red iguana. The harlem with steak sauce at Gandolfos. Simple pleasures that are done well and done right.

But to answer your question, I think that for the most part, you dont go to Utah to eat something interesting. At least not interesting by comparison. Personally, I would love for the food to improve there because I visit so often.

Thanks. Interesting.

I heard a food critic on NPR say the new best place in the world for Asian food is Honolulu, better than London, New York, Hong Kong or Beijing. I couldn't believe my ears. I'm going to have to get back there. It's been a long time since I was in Honolulu.

[il Padrino Ute]

EPU, I would be interested in trying your italian rec, given you lived in Italy and likely developed a taste for what is authentic vs what is americanized.

Also, my critiques are hairsplits....I am not saying that americanized food taste gross. I am just saying that it isnt authentic.

A breadstick at the Olive Garden tastes pretty good. But it isnt Italian food.

Fresco is authentic Italian cuisine. It's menu is most always from the northern regions, but every so often it offers a dish from the southern region.

I've heard good things about Bacci, but have yet to eat there. Like steaks, I just prefer to cook at home than eat out. Granato's is a great market that imports all the good stuff to make authentic meals.

I believe that if one is going to go eat at Olive Garden, they should save some money and go buy a flat of Spaghettios.

[Donuthole]

I would recommend the Cosmopolitan in Silver Reef.

http://www.cosmodining.com/

Long story short, a ridiculously well-trained Hungarian chef settles down in Leeds, Utah and opens a restaurant which you can only visit with a reservation, as that way they can be sure to have the fresh ingredients necessary for your order. Also, at the time of making a reservation, you can request something not on the menu, and the chef will make it for you, with his own twist.

Pretty cool place. Better than anywhere i've eaten in Northern Utah, and as good as many renowned places here in Vegas. I had the braised lamb shank (i'm a sucker for lamb) and it was truly fantastic. Plus you get a personal experience with the chef and his wife, who are very nice people.