The Book of Mormon, by Matt Stone and Trey Parker

[UtahDan]

Yes, that's been suggested by many, including Trey Parker and Matt Stone, who have pushed kind of a "nothing personal, we love you guys even though you're kinda weird" meme. I don't care if it's friendly or not, but we ought to be clear about it. Like I said, all in all I think the musical is not a bad thing.

This goes to my point though, I think they really do think they are saying something nice. They may be wrong, but I don't think they are disingenuous. But I'm not sure they are wrong.

[UtahDan]

What it did make me think was what if this tune was about Jews or Muslims, would the audience react the same?

"I believe that Mohammed rode on a horse to Allah! I believe!"

I doubt there would be much laughing. I doubt that play would even get produced.

I think you are right. Does that argue for those groups to be more like Mormons or for Mormons to be more like those other groups? I think it is the former. Like I say, I think the church and members have handled this with a ton of class for the most part.

[LA Ute]

I think you are right. Does that argue for those groups to be more like Mormons or for Mormons to be more like those other groups? I think it is the former.

Surfah can speak for himself, but I think he is saying that it's not PC to satirize the beliefs of Muslims or Jews. I don't think he is saying that makes Islam or its adherents' responses to criticism something we should emulate.

Like I say, I think the church and members have handled this with a ton of class for the most part.

We've never had the equivalent of an Anti-Defamation League and probably never will. As Surfah notes, that seems to be one reason Mormonism was picked as the vehicle for the musical. That reminds me of this exchange with Lawrence O'Donnell after his anti-Mormon rant on the McLaughlin Group:

HH: Okay. And do you believe, would you say the same things about Mohammed as you just said about Joseph Smith?

LO’D: Oh, well, I’m afraid of what the…that’s where I’m really afraid. I would like to criticize Islam much more than I do publicly, but I’m afraid for my life if I do.

HH: Well, that’s candid.

LO’D: Mormons are the nicest people in the world. They’re not going to ever…

HH: So you can be bigoted towards Mormons, because they’ll just send you a strudel.

LO’D: They’ll never take a shot at me. Those other people, I’m not going to say a word about them.

HH: They’ll send you a strudel. The Mormons will bake you a cake and be nice to you.

LO’D: I agree.

[Surfah]

Surfah can speak for himself, but I think he is saying that it's not PC to satirize the beliefs of Muslims or Jews. I don't think he is saying that makes Islam or its adherents' responses to criticism something we should emulate.

This. But I also agree to some degree with what UD said. I loved the Church's official response to it and that of most if its faithful members. I care little that other groups act like Mormons though.

We've never had the equivalent of an Anti-Defamation League and probably never will. As Surfah notes, that seems to be one reason Mormonism was picked as the vehicle for the musical. That reminds me of this exchange with Lawrence O'Donnell after his anti-Mormon rant on the McLaughlin Group:

And yes this was the point I was driving at. Low hanging fruit. The Church isn't going to declare fatwa.

[UtahDan]

And yes this was the point I was driving at. Low hanging fruit. The Church isn't going to declare fatwa.

Which is something I think you can be proud of. I think you and I and LA are in agreement here. That fact is just often cited as evidence that Mormons are not treated fairly, which is I suppose what I was responding to. But I don't think either of you are saying that.

[LA Ute]

Which is something I think you can be proud of. I think you and I and LA are in agreement here. That fact is just often cited as evidence that Mormons are not treated fairly, which is I suppose what I was responding to. But I don't think either of you are saying that.

Right. Defame us, and we'll be right over with a plate of cookies.

[Surfah]

Which is something I think you can be proud of. I think you and I and LA are in agreement here. That fact is just often cited as evidence that Mormons are not treated fairly, which is I suppose what I was responding to. But I don't think either of you are saying that.

Not quite. On the one hand I guess you could accept that as something to be proud of. But on the other hand I think you could say that Mormons are not respected, feared, or powerful enough to do anything other than turn the other cheek.

[LA Ute]

Not quite. On the one hand I guess you could accept that as something to be proud of. But on the other hand I think you could say that Mormons are not respected, feared, or powerful enough to do anything other than turn the other cheek.

Interesting question. Would we do something more aggressive if we were more feared or powerful? (I don't expect us ever to enjoy a lot of respect in the entertainment world.) According to Bushman in RSR, when law enforcement types tried to arrest Joseph Smith, he'd get the warrant tossed out in a Nauvoo court and then take the men over to the Mansion House for lunch or dinner. I think that's more likely to continue to be our general approach.

[UtahDan]

Right. Defame us, and we'll be right over with a plate of cookies.

That's all I have to do to get you to bring me cookies? But the use of the word defame is intriguing. One of the things I hear atheists complain loudly and frequently about is the fact that you can criticize almost any kind of idea in almost any terms if it is political, scientific, etc., but that when you criticize a religious idea in the same way you have crossed a line of propriety. They argue that this should not be.

If your politics are the we should not worry about pollution because there is no such thing as global warming, I can attack the evidence and logic that supports that all day long and no one thinks that inappropriate. But if your politics are that creationism should be taught in school, I can't attack the logic and evidence behind that belief without being bigoted against your religious beliefs. It then becomes a question of my tolerance. But we never praise the idea that once should be tolerant of scientific or political views that don't make any sense to us.

I'm all in favor of civility. Without it people don't listen to you. I just think it is interesting to ponder why some categories of strident disagreement are considered uncivil and others are not. Food for thought.

[woot]

Not quite. On the one hand I guess you could accept that as something to be proud of. But on the other hand I think you could say that Mormons are not respected, feared, or powerful enough to do anything other than turn the other cheek.

So you actually do have fatwa envy then? Because by your logic Catholics also lack this respect and/or power. Let's not delude ourselves here. You are envying the violence and barbarism that has made Islam less likely to be publicly parodied.

[UtahDan]

Interesting question. Would we do something more aggressive if we were more feared or powerful? (I don't expect us ever to enjoy a lot of respect in the entertainment world.) According to Bushman in RSR, when law enforcement types tried to arrest Joseph Smith, he'd get the warrant tossed out in a Nauvoo court and then take the men over to the Mansion House for lunch or dinner. I think that's more likely to continue to be our general approach.

It is always interesting to see how differently groups and individuals behave when they are powerful. I think Surfah is making an interesting point as well.

[Eddie]

I don't have a problem with the writers getting their laughs at the expense of 19 year-old exuberance and naïveté. To a certain degree, this song reminded me of "Saturday's Warrior". It's been a REALLY long time - but isn't there a song between the girlfriend and the missionary before he leaves that hit the pop culture of leaving girls behind pretty hard? And then the "we are not the ordinary..." song that the missionaries sing.

I don't have a problem with that.

This song does seem to throw some barbs that are a little more pointed. But overall, whatever.

They could similarly write a song making fun of athiests and evolutionists with lyrics that say "I believe...that the world was made when a big explosion happened in the universe, I believe...that billions of years ago my first ancestor was a single cell of primordial sludge that just happened come to be sitting in a putrid smelling pool of still water, I believe...that a long time ago there were no people because we were all just apes swinging from trees...."etc. You get the idea. It is as much about how you phrase it and the conviction with which it is said as anything.

But let's be brutally honest here: Belief in a supreme being that created this world and hides himself from us, while answering prayers sometimes and calling prophets to tell us what to do and warn us sometimes but doesn't care enough to just tell us all instead of telling the prophet sounds a little crazy. And saying that all life began because there was a big explosion and it just happened and eventually single cells developed into fish which one day learned to walk on land and eventually turned into monkeys which then became human - is just as nutty.

There is no argument for the universe, the planet earth, all the life and vegetation here, and mankind that is seen as entirely logical, sane, and easily believable. No matter what your belief - you have to be just a little crazy.

[LA Ute]

That's all I have to do to get you to bring me cookies? But the use of the word defame is intriguing. One of the things I hear atheists complain loudly and frequently about is the fact that you can criticize almost any kind of idea in almost any terms if it is political, scientific, etc., but that when you criticize a religious idea in the same way you have crossed a line of propriety. They argue that this should not be.

If your politics are the we should not worry about pollution because there is no such thing as global warming, I can attack the evidence and logic that supports that all day long and no one thinks that inappropriate. But if your politics are that creationism should be taught in school, I can't attack the logic and evidence behind that belief without being bigoted against your religious beliefs. It then becomes a question of my tolerance. But we never praise the idea that once should be tolerant of scientific or political views that don't make any sense to us.

I'm all in favor of civility. Without it people don't listen to you. I just think it is interesting to ponder why some categories of strident disagreement are considered uncivil and others are not. Food for thought.

I was just using the word "defame" broadly, in the same sense that the Anti-Defamation League does. And I can tell when you are being uncivil to me, so you're now on notice, buddy!

[Surfah]

Interesting question. Would we do something more aggressive if we were more feared or powerful? (I don't expect us ever to enjoy a lot of respect in the entertainment world.) According to Bushman in RSR, when law enforcement types tried to arrest Joseph Smith, he'd get the warrant tossed out in a Nauvoo court and then take the men over to the Mansion House for lunch or dinner. I think that's more likely to continue to be our general approach.

I didn't necessarily mean the Church would do anything differently if they were better perceived than just delusional but nice strudel bakers. In fact, I agree with you that the Church likely wouldn't act differently even if they had greater clout. And that to me is something to be genuinely proud of.

I do think that if the Church was more than just a safe punch line that others outside of the faith may more readily defend it. Kind of like your ADL comment earlier.

[Surfah]

So you actually do have fatwa envy then? Because by your logic Catholics also lack this respect and/or power. Let's not delude ourselves here. You are envying the violence and barbarism that has made Islam less likely to be publicly parodied.

Yes, you have outed me. I am trying to resurrect the Danites.