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[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm interested in what you mean by this. What specifically are you referring to by "what happened in the south"? I'm not saying I disagree, necessarily, but while there is nothing good about slavery, its downstream effects seem complicated. More to the point, it's hard to separate the effects of the war and the punitive attitudes of the North from the absence of slavery in the South.

Legislation was passed to make blacks equal with whites in the eyes of the law. Blacks were promised due process, right to vote, right to hold office, right to own property, etc. If there were troops in town maintaining the peace, these rights were preserved. The second the troops left town, blacks were attacked, driven out of town, and in some cases, murdered. Eventually, people stopped pretending or trying and we entered the Jim Crowe era.

So for people to claim that only a small percentage owned slaves, it gives a misleading image that most people in the south didn't care about slavery or were not racist.

[old_gregg]

that darn civil war, making white people lynch hundreds of black folks in the south 100+ years after its end because of its punitive outcome

[cowboy]

that darn civil war, making white people lynch hundreds of black folks in the south 100+ years after its end because of its punitive outcome

I don't why you think this, but you are welcome to your opinion.

[cowboy]

Legislation was passed to make blacks equal with whites in the eyes of the law. Blacks were promised due process, right to vote, right to hold office, right to own property, etc. If there were troops in town maintaining the peace, these rights were preserved. The second the troops left town, blacks were attacked, driven out of town, and in some cases, murdered. Eventually, people stopped pretending or trying and we entered the Jim Crowe era.

So for people to claim that only a small percentage owned slaves, it gives a misleading image that most people in the south didn't care about slavery or were not racist.

That makes sense. I think, though, that racism wasn't limited to the South, and Northerners were racists but could afford to take the moral high ground because their economy didn't depend on slavery. I am of the opinion that racism in the South was made worse because Southerners resented the presence and hypocrisy of the North. Perhaps I'm cynical, but even though the rights granted blacks were morally right, the fact that only 5 of the 24 northern states allowed blacks to vote leads me to believe that many Northerners saw the laws as a way to impose punishment on the South rather than a necessary moral step in our Republic.

[Jeff Lebowski]

That makes sense. I think, though, that racism wasn't limited to the South, and Northerners were racists but could afford to take the moral high ground because their economy didn't depend on slavery. I am of the opinion that racism in the South was made worse because Southerners resented the presence and hypocrisy of the North. Perhaps I'm cynical, but even though the rights granted blacks were morally right, the fact that only 5 of the 24 northern states allowed blacks to vote leads me to believe that many Northerners saw the laws as a way to impose punishment on the South rather than a necessary moral step in our Republic.

Of course there was racism in the north. Everyone is racist to some level, even you and me. Not sure I would put much weight in voting laws. Women couldn't vote at the time.

Sure resentment may have amplified things, but the overwhelming factor was centuries of slavery. Nothing touches that in terms of impact and ongoing legacy.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

We should have a thread of pros and cons of the south. Pro-wuap and parrot head. Con-racism. I'm on the fence about grits, maybe they are just neutral? I'd take polenta or cream of wheat over grits. They aren't great like wuap and parrot head, but also not bad like racism.

[BigPiney]

The cons outweigh the pros.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Of course there was racism in the north. Everyone is racist to some level, even you and me.

You've been telling me a lot recently it seems that I am not understanding what you are saying, so I want to be clear here. If we are all racist, as I am reading your quoted claim to say, then I wonder what the value in pointing out or calling one's racism is? I am understanding your words to say that racism just is, but you can try to control it or hide it. If that point of view is true, then instead of setting unattainable sights like ending racism we should be seeking to find an acceptable level of racism and working to have everyone conform to those standards.

I would conclude that calling everyone a racist only encourages people to find comfort in racism and makes the divide between racial groups grow.

[Jeff Lebowski]

You've been telling me a lot recently it seems that I am not understanding what you are saying, so I want to be clear here. If we are all racist, as I am reading your quoted claim to say, then I wonder what the value in pointing out or calling one's racism is? I am understanding your words to say that racism just is, but you can try to control it or hide it. If that point of view is true, then instead of setting unattainable sights like ending racism we should be seeking to find an acceptable level of racism and working to have everyone conform to those standards.

I would conclude that calling everyone a racist only encourages people to find comfort in racism and makes the divide between racial groups grow.

I wouldn't spin it that way. I am just saying that racism is rooted in fear and insecurity and other human emotions with which we all struggle and there is some benefit in honestly acknowledging that. Similar to "we are all sinners". That doesn't condone it or excuse it at all.

[cowboy]

I wouldn't spin it that way. I am just saying that racism is rooted in fear and insecurity and other human emotions with which we all struggle and there is some benefit in honestly acknowledging that. Similar to "we are all sinners". That doesn't condone it or excuse it at all.

I'm with you on this. My broader point, using the motivations of individuals for fighting against the Union as an example, is along these lines and simply that few on either side were unerringly noble or completely evil. For me it goes back to a problem with the way we judge people. We preach that we shouldn't judge one another, but we judge those in history with a microscope. Obviously there is a point where we stop trying to understand bad behavior and accept that certain historical figures were flat out evil is a good debate to have. I don't know if it's just before Lee or just before Stalin on the spectrum.

[falafel]

[Jeff Lebowski]

[snowcat]

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[Moliere]

[ATTACH]8340[/ATTACH]

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[Jeff Lebowski]

That's funny.