Six generations of sexism

[cowboy]

Though I trace all of my family roots back a long ways in the church, my family's only claim to fame in church history books is that one of my great-whatever grandfathers was reprimanded by Joseph Smith for saying that chopping wood was women's work. Sexism apparently runs deep in my heritage.

I grew up in a sexist household, but I'm a step or two away from my father, who thinks a bowl of Wheaties is cooking. I cook, I've changed a few diapers, I never call anything women's work, and though my wife is a SAHM it is her choice and I'm fine with whatever she wants to do. But I have a few holdovers from childhood.

I was always taught that men open doors for women, that men stood at the dinner table before all the women were seated, took their hats off for women in an elevator, and well, all of that old fashioned stuff. I've continued these practices into adulthood, believing it polite, but my association with people on this board makes me wonder if treating women differently is not polite, and sometimes offensive.

This is an honest question, and I'd like to hear women's opinions. Is it bad to treat women differently? Women, does it come off as polite, or does it just piss you off when a man apologizes for swearing in front of you, or steps aside to allow you to walk through the door first?

[Jacob]

Though I trace all of my family roots back a long ways in the church, my family's only claim to fame in church history books is that one of my great-whatever grandfathers was reprimanded by Joseph Smith for saying that chopping wood was women's work. Sexism apparently runs deep in my heritage.

I grew up in a sexist household, but I'm a step or two away from my father, who thinks a bowl of Wheaties is cooking. I cook, I've changed a few diapers, I never call anything women's work, and though my wife is a SAHM it is her choice and I'm fine with whatever she wants to do. But I have a few holdovers from childhood.

I was always taught that men open doors for women, that men stood at the dinner table before all the women were seated, took their hats off for women in an elevator, and well, all of that old fashioned stuff. I've continued these practices into adulthood, believing it polite, but my association with people on this board makes me wonder if treating women differently is not polite, and sometimes offensive.

This is an honest question, and I'd like to hear women's opinions. Is it bad to treat women differently? Women, does it come off as polite, or does it just piss you off when a man apologizes for swearing in front of you, or steps aside to allow you to walk through the door first?

No real woman is offended by a man's being polite as you have described it. As a man, I feel completely comfortable making this definitive statement on behalf of women everywhere.
I will admit to not being as old-fashioned, chivalrous as you, and I think it's strange to stand up when a woman enters the room. But I've never seen anybody offended by my holding the door open for them. And most women I know don't appreciate men using crude humor and language in front of them.

[cowboy]

No real woman is offended by a man's being polite as you have described it. As a man, I feel completely comfortable making this definitive statement on behalf of women everywhere.
I will admit to not being as old-fashioned, chivalrous as you, and I think it's strange to stand up when a woman enters the room. But I've never seen anybody offended by my holding the door open for them. And most women I know don't appreciate men using crude humor and language in front of them.

Well, to be honest I don't stand when women enter the room, but I'll probably hear about it from my grandmother when I die. I've never thought of it as chivalry, just good manners. Now I wonder at times if women just want to be treated like men.

[jay santos]

Though I trace all of my family roots back a long ways in the church, my family's only claim to fame in church history books is that one of my great-whatever grandfathers was reprimanded by Joseph Smith for saying that chopping wood was women's work. Sexism apparently runs deep in my heritage.

I grew up in a sexist household, but I'm a step or two away from my father, who thinks a bowl of Wheaties is cooking. I cook, I've changed a few diapers, I never call anything women's work, and though my wife is a SAHM it is her choice and I'm fine with whatever she wants to do. But I have a few holdovers from childhood.

I was always taught that men open doors for women, that men stood at the dinner table before all the women were seated, took their hats off for women in an elevator, and well, all of that old fashioned stuff. I've continued these practices into adulthood, believing it polite, but my association with people on this board makes me wonder if treating women differently is not polite, and sometimes offensive.

This is an honest question, and I'd like to hear women's opinions. Is it bad to treat women differently? Women, does it come off as polite, or does it just piss you off when a man apologizes for swearing in front of you, or steps aside to allow you to walk through the door first?

We get it. You're a chivalrous stud. The women are impressed.

[cowboy]

We get it. You're a chivalrous stud. The women are impressed.

No, I don't think you do. I was taught that treating women differently was polite, and I have wondered recently if it is not perceived to be. But you can mock if you like.

[beelzebabette]

Short answer: I like it, but most of the men I've grown up around do those things so it doesn't feel out of place. I might feel awkward if something interrupted the normal flow of the day. Just as an example, my younger brother always insists on walking on the traffic side of any pedestrian route when he's with a woman. Which is fine, but when my gait's interrupted because I have to wait for him to catch up after he's stepped behind me or whatever, I roll my eyes a little. It certainly doesn't bother me, though.

[cowboy]

Let's ask this a different way. Do women consider being treated differently to be condescending? Are these old-fashioned practices something that I should teach my son, or should I let them die? My wife is indifferent. She doesn't care if I open her car door or not, and to be honest, I rarely do anymore. She would probably be fine with me not teaching my sons the same things I was taught, but I've always thought I would, because it's part of good manners. Have good manners changed? Is holding the chair for your dinner date just a stupid tradition?

[Jarid in Cedar]

Though I trace all of my family roots back a long ways in the church, my family's only claim to fame in church history books is that one of my great-whatever grandfathers was reprimanded by Joseph Smith for saying that chopping wood was women's work. Sexism apparently runs deep in my heritage.

I grew up in a sexist household, but I'm a step or two away from my father, who thinks a bowl of Wheaties is cooking. I cook, I've changed a few diapers, I never call anything women's work, and though my wife is a SAHM it is her choice and I'm fine with whatever she wants to do. But I have a few holdovers from childhood.

I was always taught that men open doors for women, that men stood at the dinner table before all the women were seated, took their hats off for women in an elevator, and well, all of that old fashioned stuff. I've continued these practices into adulthood, believing it polite, but my association with people on this board makes me wonder if treating women differently is not polite, and sometimes offensive.

This is an honest question, and I'd like to hear women's opinions. Is it bad to treat women differently? Women, does it come off as polite, or does it just piss you off when a man apologizes for swearing in front of you, or steps aside to allow you to walk through the door first?

This is why I like you. We were definitely raised with similar expectations. I don't view it as sexist, or chivilrous. I view it as respectful, polite and courteous.

[beelzebabette]

cowboy, this'll be my last reply so more people can chime in: teach your son to apply the same judgment he does to any other life-skills episode. Chivalry's good, but it's not necessary to insist his date stay in the car until he can walk around if there's no safety issue with her getting out of the car on her own and meeting him in front of the vehicle.

The only time I would consider it condescending is in a workplace setting when equal treatment is expected. It's fine to grab the heavier bag on the way out the door, but you don't need to offer to take a second bag a female coworker is already carrying and suggest she just carry her purse, e.g. I might ask one of the guys I work with to carry a paper box because I'm less strong and have no machismo to maintain so maybe I'm guilty of a double standard.

Most people get this right on their own so it's not something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

[jay santos]

No, I don't think you do. I was taught that treating women differently was polite, and I have wondered recently if it is not perceived to be. But you can mock if you like.

Just messing with ya.

[Pheidippides]

I don't know if women like it or not, but there is a definite regional difference in the practice. I typically conform my practice to the region in which I live (I had more or less the same upbringing as you on this topic). In Texas, women are always permitted on and off elevators first, for example, no matter the setting (it actually bugs one of my coworkers when we wait for her to get off first). In NYC, that idea is laughable at best.

[Surfah]

I once was on a date with this gal in Idaho Falls. We get to the movie theater (I think it was Apollo 13 we were seeing) and I get out of the car and am standing by the trunk of the car waiting for her. I was fumbling with my wallet so I wasn't paying attention and not seeing her, thought maybe she cut through the cars to the other row. So I start walking, looking around and then think to myself, she couldn't possibly still be in the car waiting for me could she? Yup.

[beefytee]

My dad always opened the car door for my mother while I was growing up.

I did it for my wife when we first got married, but found that she preferred having the AC or heater on quickly depending on the season, so she insisted I head right for my door and get the car started. So I no longer open the door for her.

I think the most polite thing do to is get to know your audience and show respect to their wishes.

[RC Vikings]

I was always taught that men open doors for women, that men stood at the dinner table before all the women were seated, took their hats off for women in an elevator, and well, all of that old fashioned stuff. I've continued these practices into adulthood, believing it polite, but my association with people on this board makes me wonder if treating women differently is not polite, and sometimes offensive.

Wow and I thought I was doing good because I take my hat off when shaking hands after a round of golf.

[marsupial]

Though I trace all of my family roots back a long ways in the church, my family's only claim to fame in church history books is that one of my great-whatever grandfathers was reprimanded by Joseph Smith for saying that chopping wood was women's work. Sexism apparently runs deep in my heritage.

I grew up in a sexist household, but I'm a step or two away from my father, who thinks a bowl of Wheaties is cooking. I cook, I've changed a few diapers, I never call anything women's work, and though my wife is a SAHM it is her choice and I'm fine with whatever she wants to do. But I have a few holdovers from childhood.

I was always taught that men open doors for women, that men stood at the dinner table before all the women were seated, took their hats off for women in an elevator, and well, all of that old fashioned stuff. I've continued these practices into adulthood, believing it polite, but my association with people on this board makes me wonder if treating women differently is not polite, and sometimes offensive.

This is an honest question, and I'd like to hear women's opinions. Is it bad to treat women differently? Women, does it come off as polite, or does it just piss you off when a man apologizes for swearing in front of you, or steps aside to allow you to walk through the door first?

I haven't noticed anyone taking off his hat for me. I often get doors held open for me, by men and women, but I always thought that was because I generally have one kid on my hip, a diaper bag/purse slung over my shoulder, another kid hanging on my other arm and another following behind. You know, I hold doors open too for people, especially if they have their hands full. It's just common courtesy.

I guess I would think it was a little funny if a man apologized for swearing in front of me, especially since I probably have a worse potty mouth than him.