Apple Jan. 27 launch event... what will it be?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Stoopid... Apple has a corner on the market when it comes to lightning-to-aux cables?

Also... charge and listen at the same time:




I do admit that Phil using the word "courage" to describe why apple did it was a poor choice of words. A better word would be "progress". It is time for the analog plug to die.

You don't get it. The fact that you need a freaking dongle is THE problem, regardless of who sells it. That is not progress.

As for ditching the analog plug (from the Tech Crunch article linked above):

Audio is so simple to transmit in high fidelity that it can be done with a wire hanger. Using a powered, high-bandwidth data interface adds nothing but cost and complexity, and the space you save is minimal.

Data doesn’t need to go to the headphones, nor do the headphones need to send data back. Digital-to-analog conversion has to be done eventually, because speakers don’t produce sound waves with 1s and 0s. Whether you do it a millimeter from the speaker or three feet away in the phone itself is not important. It won’t affect the sound quality.


The 3.5mm jack is robust, familiar, secure, well-documented, and so on — we’ve seen the argument play out over the last year. You know why it’s good: because it works reliably, worldwide, and with millions of devices. Without Apple’s permission.

Apple is force-feeding us a solution to a non-existent problem.

[Uncle Ted]

You don't get it. The fact that you need a freaking dongle is THE problem, regardless of who sells it. That is not progress.

As for ditching the analog plug (from the Tech Crunch article linked above):



Apple is force-feeding us a solution to a non-existent problem.

Apple gives you the dongle as a transition to the future.

I am guessing you were perfectly happy with your analog TV before the FCC killed it. I have an old analog tube tv kicking around in the garage. I'll bring it to you the next time I make a road trip to Utah. My mother refused to buy a new tv with the HDTV switch over. I finally fixed her up with one of those HDTV to STV converters that the FCC gave out coupons to get. She still uses that analog tv. You would like her. I can't believe, however, she still is using that "freaking dongle" HDTV-to-STV converter when HDTVs are cheap as dirt now.

Advantage of digital audio:

(1) Not all DAC (digital-to-audio converters) are created equal. Some are much higher quality than others. Of course, you might have to have a very good and trained ear to hear the difference (or be a dog).

(2) Devices like noise cancelling headphones and advance hearing aids (yes, there are hearing aids that work directly with your smartphone) convert the analog signal to digital, do the voice cancelling using digital signal processing (DSP), and then convert the signal back into analog for ear. Lightning connected noise cancelling headphones can skip a step since the signal is already digital. I could imagine integrated DSPs doing other things to the audio signal. For example, creating a concert hall like sound right in your ear. The kind of stuff expense stereo systems do.

(3) Analog signals are very susceptible to noise unlike digital signals. While analog noise has been reduced thanks to things like filtering (think about that 60 hz "hum" we all use to hear) you lose part of the source signal doing that. Long analog paths (like wires) pick up noise.

Maybe the mistake that apple made was not putting two lightning ports in the bottom of iPhones?

[falafel]

Apple gives you the dongle as a transition to the future.

I am guessing you were perfectly happy with your analog TV before the FCC killed it. I have an old analog tube tv kicking around in the garage. I'll bring it to you the next time I make a road trip to Utah. My mother refused to buy a new tv with the HDTV switch over. I finally fixed her up with one of those HDTV to STV converters that the FCC gave out coupons to get. She still uses that analog tv. You would like her. I can't believe, however, she still is using that "freaking dongle" HDTV-to-STV converter when HDTVs are cheap as dirt now.

Advantage of digital audio:

(1) Not all DAC (digital-to-audio converters) are created equal. Some are much higher quality than others. Of course, you might have to have a very good and trained ear to hear the difference (or be a dog).

(2) Devices like noise cancelling headphones and advance hearing aids (yes, there are hearing aids that work directly with your smartphone) convert the analog signal to digital, do the voice cancelling using digital signal processing (DSP), and then convert the signal back into analog for ear. Lightning connected noise cancelling headphones can skip a step since the signal is already digital. I could imagine integrated DSPs doing other things to the audio signal. For example, creating a concert hall like sound right in your ear. The kind of stuff expense stereo systems do.

(3) Analog signals are very susceptible to noise unlike digital signals. While analog noise has been reduced thanks to things like filtering (think about that 60 hz "hum" we all use to hear) you lose part of the source signal doing that. Long analog paths (like wires) pick up noise.

Nope.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Apple gives you the dongle as a transition to the future.

I am guessing you were perfectly happy with your analog TV before the FCC killed it. I have an old analog tube tv kicking around in the garage. I'll bring it to you the next time I make a road trip to Utah. My mother refused to buy a new tv with the HDTV switch over. I finally fixed her up with one of those HDTV to STV converters that the FCC gave out coupons to get. She still uses that analog tv. You would like her. I can believe, however, still is using that "freaking dongle" HDTV-to-STV converter when HDTVs are cheap as dirt now.

Advantage of digital audio:

(1) Not all DAC (digital-to-audio converters) are created equal. Some are much higher quality than others. Of course, you might have to have a very good and trained ear to hear the difference (or be a dog).

(2) Devices like noise cancelling headphones and advance hearing aids (yes, there are hearing aids that work directly with your smartphone) convert the analog signal to digital, do the voice cancelling using digital signal processing (DSP), and then convert the signal back into analog for ear. Lightning connected noise cancelling headphones can skip a step since the signal is already digital. I could imagine integrated DSPs doing other things to the audio signal. For example, creating a concert hall like sound right in your ear. The kind of stuff expense stereo systems.

(3) Analog signals are very susceptible to noise unlike digital signals. While analog noise has been reduced thanks to things like filtering (think about that 60 hz "hum" we all use to hear) you lose part of the source signal doing that. Long analog paths (like wires) pick up noise.

Maybe the mistake that apple made was not putting two lightning ports in the bottom of iPhones?

Ted, you are killing me. If Apple announced they were using child slave labor to produce iphones you would probably come here and defend it.

For 99% of the time, the analog jack is perfectly adequate. For the other 1% of the time, the previous iphones already had a lightning port. You want to use Bluetooth? Knock yourself out. You want to use a lightning audio device? Go for it.

The sound quality argument is a joke. There is no perceptible buzz on analog wired earbuds. There just isn't. If people could truly tell a difference, they would have already been purchasing lightning jack earbuds. You know what does actually reduce sound quality? Bluetooth.

And no matter how you slice it, they went from two ports to one, thus requiring a bulky dongle to do something as basic as charge and listen at the same time. There is no getting around that.

[Uncle Ted]

Ted, you are killing me. If Apple announced they were using child slave labor to produce iphones you would probably come here and defend it.

No, that would hurt the stock price... not good.

For 99% of the time, the analog jack is perfectly adequate. For the other 1% of the time, the previous iphones already had a lightning port. You want to use Bluetooth? Knock yourself out. You want to use a lightning audio device? Go for it.

The sound quality argument is a joke. There is no perceptible buzz on analog wired earbuds. There just isn't. If people could truly tell a difference, they would have already been purchasing lightning jack earbuds. You know what does actually reduce sound quality? Bluetooth.

And no matter how you slice it, they went from two ports to one, thus requiring a bulky dongle to do something as basic as charge and listen at the same time. There is no getting around that.

I don't hear any buzz on analog wired earbuds but I do with Aux cables connected to my home stereo amp.

No, they give you earbuds that plug right into the lightning port... no 1878 analog audio plug required.

[falafel]

No, that would hurt the stock price... not good.



I don't hear any buzz on analog wired earbuds but I do with Aux cables connected to my home stereo amp.

No, they give you earbuds that plug right into the lightning port... no 1878 analog audio plug required.

C'mon Ted, at least don't distort the facts! The analog audio plug in use today is from the 1960s.

[creekster]

No, that would hurt the stock price... not good.



I don't hear any buzz on analog wired earbuds but I do with Aux cables connected to my home stereo amp.

Then Use better shielded cables. Sheesh.

I was using blue tooth headsets with a blackberry 8 years ago. That we are forced to use them now is not a courageous step. Or progress.

The only question is whether there is any reason to have a signal leaving the phone be digital as opposed to analog. It appears that little space is saved. And, moreover, there are substantial problems for the consumer including the use of dongles to achieve what the phone alone did before.

It amazes me that you would argue on behalf of Apple that multiple dongles are an adequate solution to a problem that was created by the apple design. It seems to fly in the face of apple's Credo of form and function working together in simplicity. Rather then simplifying the function The form has complicated it. It just doesn't make sense. Added to this is the fact that there is no advantage sonically in moving the digital conversion to the headphone and I am lleft concluding that Apple has made a power play, based in hubris.

[Shaka]

Apple gives you the dongle as a transition to the future.

I am guessing you were perfectly happy with your analog TV before the FCC killed it. I have an old analog tube tv kicking around in the garage. I'll bring it to you the next time I make a road trip to Utah. My mother refused to buy a new tv with the HDTV switch over. I finally fixed her up with one of those HDTV to STV converters that the FCC gave out coupons to get. She still uses that analog tv. You would like her. I can't believe, however, she still is using that "freaking dongle" HDTV-to-STV converter when HDTVs are cheap as dirt now.

Advantage of digital audio:

(1) Not all DAC (digital-to-audio converters) are created equal. Some are much higher quality than others. Of course, you might have to have a very good and trained ear to hear the difference (or be a dog).

(2) Devices like noise cancelling headphones and advance hearing aids (yes, there are hearing aids that work directly with your smartphone) convert the analog signal to digital, do the voice cancelling using digital signal processing (DSP), and then convert the signal back into analog for ear. Lightning connected noise cancelling headphones can skip a step since the signal is already digital. I could imagine integrated DSPs doing other things to the audio signal. For example, creating a concert hall like sound right in your ear. The kind of stuff expense stereo systems do.

(3) Analog signals are very susceptible to noise unlike digital signals. While analog noise has been reduced thanks to things like filtering (think about that 60 hz "hum" we all use to hear) you lose part of the source signal doing that. Long analog paths (like wires) pick up noise.

Maybe the mistake that apple made was not putting two lightning ports in the bottom of iPhones?

Maybe we should all just go deaf and then we can benefit. DSP for the hard of hearing folks is an entirely different matter than for us that enjoy listening to music with headphones. Yes they can cancel noise but typically they use for high and low pass filtering so that the frequencies that a particular ear can hear are the ones being focused into the ear canal.

You're killing me. Tiny earphone DSP's in the headphone are a terrible idea. Any processing like that should occur before the signal is converted to analog. Converting back and forth several times can cause all kinds of problems resulting in audio degradation. Also audiophiles typically hate DSP processing of the signal because the music is mixed as it's meant to be heard. I've never heard a song that I enjoyed more in, "Concert Hall Mode" than in it's pristine unprocessed state.

[Uncle Ted]

Then Use better shielded cables. Sheesh.

I was using blue tooth headsets with a blackberry 8 years ago. That we are forced to use them now is not a courageous step. Or progress.

The only question is whether there is any reason to have a signal leaving the phone be digital as opposed to analog. It appears that little space is saved. And, moreover, there are substantial problems for the consumer including the use of dongles to achieve what the phone alone did before.

It amazes me that you would argue on behalf of Apple that multiple dongles are an adequate solution to a problem that was created by the apple design. It seems to fly in the face of apple's Credo of form and function working together in simplicity. Rather then simplifying the function The form has complicated it. It just doesn't make sense. Added to this is the fact that there is no advantage sonically in moving the digital conversion to the headphone and I am lleft concluding that Apple has made a power play, based in hubris.

The analog headphone dongle is only there for the transition... until the 1960's mini phone jack can be killed off.

Apple has shown that a smartphone only needs one button to do an incredible amount of stuff. Now they are showing that only one port is all that is needed to connect all the crap you could possible think of using. Less ports also means less mechanical crap to break and fail (which I have personally seen happen many times)... not to mention to get water/dust in.

Yeah, Bluetooth is getting a little long in the tooth and could use an update. Of course, with the lightning port you could just snap in a little dongle to support whatever replaces it (rather than replacing your entire phone)... and no extra set of batteries would be required.

[Uncle Ted]

Maybe we should all just go deaf and then we can benefit. DSP for the hard of hearing folks is an entirely different matter than for us that enjoy listening to music with headphones. Yes they can cancel noise but typically they use for high and low pass filtering so that the frequencies that a particular ear can hear are the ones being focused into the ear canal.

You're killing me. Tiny earphone DSP's in the headphone are a terrible idea. Any processing like that should occur before the signal is converted to analog. Converting back and forth several times can cause all kinds of problems resulting in audio degradation. Also audiophiles typically hate DSP processing of the signal because the music is mixed as it's meant to be heard. I've never heard a song that I enjoyed more in, "Concert Hall Mode" than in it's pristine unprocessed state.

Tell that to all the people wearing noise cancelling headphones. They convert from analog to digital so that DSP can be applied then back to analog.

Edit: Your comment illustrates my point: "Any processing like that should occur before the signal is converted to analog." So are you saying that the iPhone should have the noise cancelling DSP hardware inside the phone so the DSP could be applied before the DAC? Some noise canceling headphones work better than others for good reasons: better DSP processors, better software, etc. So are you saying that Apple would have the best noise cancelling processors and software?

In short, going digital outside the phone eliminates the ADC step to convert the signal back to digital (which saves power, BTW).

[Jeff Lebowski]

The analog headphone dongle is only there for the transition... until the 1960's mini phone jack can be killed off.

Except that you will always need the lightning splitter dongle if you want to charge and listen at the same time.

Apple has shown that a smartphone only needs one button to do an incredible amount of stuff. Now they are showing that only one port is all that is needed to connect all the crap you could possible think of using. Less ports also means less mechanical crap to break and fail (which I have personally seen happen many times)... not to mention to get water/dust in.

Yeah, Bluetooth is getting a little long in the tooth and could use an update. Of course, with the lightning port you could just snap in a little dongle to support whatever replaces it (rather than replacing your entire phone)... and no extra set of batteries would be required.

Oh my. This is priceless. "All you need is one port! ... and a bunch of dongles."

[creekster]

Apple has shown that a smartphone only needs one button to do an incredible amount of stuff. Now they are showing that only one port is all that is needed to connect all the crap you could possible think of using. Less ports also means less mechanical crap to break and fail (which I have personally seen happen many times)... not to mention to get water/dust in.

.

I have only had a single instance of lint/dirt interfering with a port. Ever, in all the devices I have ever owned. That just happened this year in my iphone 6 when my lightning port had to be picked out to keep charging the phone. Thanks, Apple!

[Uncle Ted]

Except that you will always need the lightning splitter dongle if you want to charge and listen at the same time.



Oh my. This is priceless. "All you need is one port! ... and a bunch of dongles."

Dongles will dry up and go away. Everything you will want to use will have a lightning plug. The one plug that rules them all!

[creekster]

Dongles will dry up and go away. Everything you will want to use will have a lightning plug. The one plug that rules them all!

unless you want to use wired headphones and charge at the same time. then back to the dongle!

[Northwestcoug]

I know no one uses MotoZ phones, but did anyone else know this?

For all the conflicted opinions about the change, Apple is not the first company to remove the headphone jack from its phones. Android phone manufacturers Lenovo (the Moto Z and Moto Z Force), and LeEco have already made the move. Liang Jun, LeEco’s president of research and development explained that the company believes its digital USB-C connection provides superior audio reproduction.

I don't want to stem the bash Apple tide going on here, but it's interesting that other phones have done away with the audio jack.

Continue with the Apple/UT bashing...