Why I'm proud to be a BYU grad.

[thesaint258]

And it is most obvious in the law school. I have quite a few connections at BYU law and have sat in some of the first year courses for fun. I was utterly shocked at how one-sided the debates were. People spewing out ideas with little backing because there was nobody to challenge them (even though they thought there was). I brought this up with the professor after class and he not only admitted as much, but said it was his major knock on the school as well.

The more I hear from people, the more I think my class must have been very different. We had some pretty good debates in several classes with well thought out positions on both sides. I also had a lot of really good discussions with classmates outside of class. It was far from the typical right vs. far right discussions people usually think of when they think of BYU.

Of course, we also got a lot of comments from faculty and staff that we were really laid back, especially compared to the other classes. It's very possible that my experience was the random exception due to the make up of our class.

[PaloAltoCougar]

On what makes a great university, we should defer to the estimable Clark Kerr who presided for many years at UC Berkeley, one of the top universities in the world. When asked about the major challenges he faced in achieving such greatness, he answered: "I find that the three major administrative problems on a campus are sex for the students, athletics for the alumni and parking for the faculty." Insert "no" before "sex," and this equally true for BYU.

[ERCougar]

The point of diversity is not because different colored skin makes any difference, it's because different points of view are important. Just considering political diversity alone I have to think that Utah has BYU beat on diversity.

It is true that most BYU students were at least reasonably smart and motivated, perhaps even more so than the undergrads I teach at a much, much better university. I don't think this offsets the homogeneity not only in cultural background, but in every other sort of background found at BYU.

I'm not talking about skin color--if I were, BYU would fare even worse. Whenever you have 30,000 different students, you're going to necessarily have some diversity of experience and opinion. It may not be huge, and it's definitely not BYU's strong point, but to classify all of BYU as WASPy close-minded Peter Priesthoods/Molly Mormons is just as dumb as CMBF's stereotypes.

[ERCougar]

I wish they would expand these kind of lists to cover other topics. I'm quite sure BYU and Utah could make a few more.

Utah:

Top 10 per capita use of fake tanning creams and tanning salons

Top 10 in number of girls rocking the Kate Gosselin do.

BYU:

Top 10 in number of girls wearing overalls.

Lowest amount of consumption of female hair products and makeup in a conservative college (but can't touch schools like Vassar).

You're pretty funny, but I just don't get these weird sterotype jokes. I don't recall ever seeing a girl wearing overalls at BYU, although I'm not really sure I'd care if I did. Kate Gosselin is about the only woman I've ever seen with that ridiculous haircut. I'm not sure there's any more use of fake tanning supplies at the U than BYU or any other school. And I saw plenty of BYU girls wear a lot of makeup--in fact, when I was there, I probably heard more jokes about too much makeup/hairspray.

[UtahDan]

Don't worry buddy, I'll hold a position here at 7/11 for ya. The Dixie grad that manned the hot dog machine couldn't figure out how to turn it on and off.

CB just called and said your curfew had passed and could we please send you on home.

[WashingtonCoug]

I'm on my way

[Color Me Badd Fan]

You're pretty funny, but I just don't get these weird sterotype jokes. I don't recall ever seeing a girl wearing overalls at BYU, although I'm not really sure I'd care if I did. Kate Gosselin is about the only woman I've ever seen with that ridiculous haircut. I'm not sure there's any more use of fake tanning supplies at the U than BYU or any other school. And I saw plenty of BYU girls wear a lot of makeup--in fact, when I was there, I probably heard more jokes about too much makeup/hairspray.

There's a thread from a while back where we talked about BYU's disintegrating quality of coeds. My trip to the campus last month didn't do anything to refute my opinion. I actually DID see a girl wearing overalls on campus. I know, I couldn't believe it either. But while living in NYC back in 2005, I took a trip back to Utah around March or April and stopped by BYU's campus and I guess I never noticed a number of things before. At least at that point, there were still quite a few girls wearing either extremely unflattering Mom pants or overalls.

My Kate Gosselin joke was just an attempt to characterize (poorly done apparently) that horrible haircut that seems to be prevalent in Utah where the girls/women fluff up the hair on the crown of the head- and sometimes it DOES look like Kate Gosselin's mop.

Utefans.net used to have a running joke of calling Luke Staheli "Lady Remington" which I always found kind of funny. At least at the tailend of my tenure at BYU, there were plenty of beefcakes at BYU shaving their chests, armpits and legs. I'm not sure if that's still the case given the fact that every incoming male freshman seems to have been in the high school band and would most likely not be the type to shave all of their body hair off.

[ERCougar]

There's a thread from a while back where we talked about BYU's disintegrating quality of coeds. My trip to the campus last month didn't do anything to refute my opinion. I actually DID see a girl wearing overalls on campus. I know, I couldn't believe it either. But while living in NYC back in 2005, I took a trip back to Utah around March or April and stopped by BYU's campus and I guess I never noticed a number of things before. At least at that point, there were still quite a few girls wearing either extremely unflattering Mom pants or overalls.

My Kate Gosselin joke was just an attempt to characterize (poorly done apparently) that horrible haircut that seems to be prevalent in Utah where the girls/women fluff up the hair on the crown of the head- and sometimes it DOES look like Kate Gosselin's mop.

Utefans.net used to have a running joke of calling Luke Staheli "Lady Remington" which I always found kind of funny. At least at the tailend of my tenure at BYU, there were plenty of beefcakes at BYU shaving their chests, armpits and legs. I'm not sure if that's still the case given the fact that every incoming male freshman seems to have been in the high school band and would most likely not be the type to shave all of their body hair off.

Ok...I take it back on the Kate Gosselin joke. One of my major pet peeve haircuts of Utah is that weird reverse A-line thing where it's really long in front and short in back. I'll give you that one.

Maybe you're right on the overalls thing. I haven't been to campus in a while.

[Donuthole]

I agree with this - and it points to the one issue that I have with BYU: it's not diverse enough.

<Donut and falafel turn away>

And it is most obvious in the law school. I have quite a few connections at BYU law and have sat in some of the first year courses for fun. I was utterly shocked at how one-sided the debates were. People spewing out ideas with little backing because there was nobody to challenge them (even though they thought there was). I brought this up with the professor after class and he not only admitted as much, but said it was his major knock on the school as well.

Disclaimer: I do not intend for this to read as though I am sad I went to BYU undergrad (I am not) or that I think BYU law school is crap (I applied there too).

I think this is a bit overstated. I went to BYU law expecting the worst in this respect, and ended up being pleasantly surprised at the diversity of both opinion/political idealolgy and ethnicity. In just my small section (group of about 30 1L students) there was a Pakistani girl from SoCal, a black kid from New Jersey, and a Latino kid (uber-liberal and outspoken, BTW) from Boise. Each of them brought a pretty unique perspective to our discussion, and commented on a regular basis.

There were definitely a few peter priesthoods who took it upon themselves to make conservative comments at every opportunity, but their comments rarely went unchallenged or unquestioned. And if they did, it was because many of us were just rolling our eyes and waiting for them to shut up.

I'm not trying to present BYU Law as a bastion of diversity. It isn't. But there is enough diversity there to engender good debate and thought. In short, it exceeded my expectations in that regard, and by quite a bit. Keep in mind that I arrived there fresh from Weber State's poli-sci department, which was fairly diverse and really quite liberal in its own right. Truthfully, diversity wasn't a bit selling point for me one way or another, and I chose BYU because it was dirt-cheap and allowed me to get a quality degree without having to take a high-paying, high-stress job to make my student loan payments.

Do I sometimes regret that I didn't branch out a bit more in my educational endeavors? Sure. Do I sometimes regret that I'm not at a big firm making bank? Sure. Do I ever regret that I didn't go to a law school with a more diverse offering of race, religion, and ideology? Not really (aside from the fact that I really, really wanted to go to Boalt, just because. Damn California State School quotas).

[TripletDaddy]

Do I sometimes regret that I'm not at a big firm making bank? Sure.

Don't

allowed me to get a quality degree without having to take a high-paying, high-stress job to make my student loan payments.

you figured this out early in your career. Good for you. Stressful jobs suck. Life is too short. Enjoy your family and have a life after work.

[falafel]

Do I sometimes regret that I didn't branch out a bit more in my educational endeavors? Sure. Do I sometimes regret that I'm not at a big firm making bank? Sure. Do I ever regret that I didn't go to a law school with a more diverse offering of race, religion, and ideology? Not really (aside from the fact that I really, really wanted to go to Boalt, just because. Damn California State School quotas).

Do I make a habit of asking questions out loud only to answer them myself? Absolutely.

[Colly Wolly]

BYU leads Utah because the legislature requires Utah to relax its standards for instate applicants. If Utah were even like UW in terms of ability to set numerical admissions standards, it would be ahead of BYU. You can't compare private and public schools, and in fact no. 71 for a private school is not so hot. I'd still like to know how BYU moved up 35+ places in one year. Everyone knows this ranking is dubious. The other thing is this only addresses undergraduate part of a university, the "colleges," not overall academic reputation including research, or reputation in any individual graduate school, etc.

This post made my day. Thank you.

[Pheidippides]

I think this is a bit overstated. I went to BYU law expecting the worst in this respect, and ended up being pleasantly surprised at the diversity of both opinion/political idealolgy and ethnicity. In just my small section (group of about 30 1L students) there was a Pakistani girl from SoCal, a black kid from New Jersey, and a Latino kid (uber-liberal and outspoken, BTW) from Boise. Each of them brought a pretty unique perspective to our discussion, and commented on a regular basis.

And 27 white married RMs with families. Maybe one white female for fun.

People on BYU law's admissions committee who I know well do not think it's overstated. Nor did the professor of whom I speak. Nor do I. Remember, I went to undergrad there, and I had small sections of various things with the token minority or different student there.

It was a far different experience to actually be the minority, so to speak.

Again, this is not to say that BYU is not a good school. It is lacking in this one area (and there aren't any easy solutions to it, I might add). It is an area that extremely important to me, although I did not realize how important until after the fact. It should be noted that BYU has other significant advantages over others (as you will quickly see when we compare student loan debt, for example) - and not everybody would have found the same value in diversity that I did -and I'll not question anybody's decision to go there.

[Solon]

As much as we discuss academic standards and the merits/demerits of various institutions of higher learning in the state of Utah (and beyond), the logorrhea I encounter on this board leads me to believe that all these schools churn out a lot of idiots.

[New Mexican Disaster]

I think it might have something to do with the fact that BYU has decided to give USNews details about the endowment: $868,059,038

Where did you get this info?