The Taysom Hill Thread

[Hsaru]

I'm merely pointing out that even good QB's struggle against good teams. This goes doubly true for BYU QB's.

That is a good point, but I don't see how that applies to Riley Nelson.

[Shaka]

That is a good point, but I don't see how that applies to Riley Nelson.

It applies because he's struggling against the same teams others have. This in and of itself doesn't prove he's a good QB but it has to be taken into account when you evaluate him. John and Max ripped apart the mediocre just like Jake and Riley. However they struggled plenty against the tough competition just like Jake and just like Riley.

QB play has a lot to do with the supporting cast. My biggest beef with your average CB dude is that immediate blame gets placed on the QB without any scrutiny on what's going on around the QB. A healthy Jake or Riley is going to struggle against Utah because a. Utah is tough and usually has a great front seven (this year Star and Kruger gave our line fits) b. that's what BYU QB's do against Utah.

[MarkGrace]

I'm disappointed in shaka. Instead of using these games as a platform for more riley excuses, he should be using it to lobby for some time for his boy lark.

[Hsaru]

It applies because he's struggling against the same teams others have. This in and of itself doesn't prove he's a good QB but it has to be taken into account when you evaluate him. John and Max ripped apart the mediocre just like Jake and Riley. However they struggled plenty against the tough competition just like Jake and just like Riley.

QB play has a lot to do with the supporting cast. My biggest beef with your average CB dude is that immediate blame gets placed on the QB without any scrutiny on what's going on around the QB. A healthy Jake or Riley is going to struggle against Utah because a. Utah is tough and usually has a great front seven (this year Star and Kruger gave our line fits) b. that's what BYU QB's do against Utah.

I know all about those other factors that go into the play of the offense, but you seem 100x more concerned about those factors now that it is affecting Riley Nelson than you were with last year's QB. You did a whole lot of shrugging off of those factors last year, when in actuality for a pure pocket passer those factors affected that QB 10x more than a playground improvising QB.

[Shaka]

I'm disappointed in shaka. Instead of using these games as a platform for more riley excuses, he should be using it to lobby for some time for his boy lark.

With the caveat that Taysom will struggle because he doesn't know much of the offense I have no problem starting him. I also have no problem if they start Lark. This year is by no means over so I say start who will get you the win.

[Shaka]

I know all about those other factors that go into the play of the offense, but you seem 100x more concerned about those factors now that it is affecting Riley Nelson than you were with last year's QB. You did a whole lot of shrugging off of those factors last year, when in actuality for a pure pocket passer those factors affected that QB 10x more than a playground improvising QB.

I really didn't. I was hard on Jake because he was poor fundamentally and slacked on and off the field.

[Hsaru]

I really didn't. I was hard on Jake because he was poor fundamentally and slacked on and off the field.

All I know is that all we learned about both QB's last year is that they can dominate really poor teams and the combination of their poor play and our pathetic offensive system was not close to good enough against good teams. All the factors that relate this year, related last year. Your perception of one player's work ethic doesn't change that. And I can guarantee you weren't pulling out these "excuses" last year. The only times they have come up from you were after Riley games even 2010 AFA.

[MarkGrace]

Poor fundamentally? His footwork, throwing mechanics, release (ie, fundamentals) were all about a hundred times better than riley.

As for his offseason, well, I think you'll remember what prompts that kind of behavior as a newlywed when you get married!

[Shaka]

Poor fundamentally? His footwork, throwing mechanics, release (ie, fundamentals) were all about a hundred times better than riley.

As for his offseason, well, I think you'll remember what prompts that kind of behavior as a newlywed when you get married!

He airmailed plenty of passes and threw others in the dirt. Jake's fundamentals suffered.

[Hsaru]

He airmailed plenty of passes and threw others in the dirt. Jake's fundamentals suffered.

Pocket passers with great fundamentals/skills will airmail passes all the time if they don't feel comfortable in the offense. Listen to Tom Brady or Peyton Manning talk about offense, they mention being comfortable in the offense as the top or one of the top factors every single time.

Jake had some real issues with his fundamentals on dump offs at times and changing the trajectory on some passes in the middle. But overall his fundamentals were very good, his main issue was comfort in the offense.

[MarkGrace]

He airmailed plenty of passes and threw others in the dirt. Jake's fundamentals suffered.

So you mean to tell me that despite recruiting evaluators, Bronco, Doman, Weis, and guys like HL and Junkie, raving about his fundamentals, not only were they not good, they were actually poor? I guess I'm incredulous.

I'm not a QB coach, but I don't see throwing a football as all that different from throwing a baseball, and it's entirely possible to have good throwing fundamentals and struggle with accuracy, and vice versa. For a pitcher fundamentals start on the back leg, run all the way to the non-throwing arm and head, end at the release point. It's entirely possible to be fundamentally sound all the way through the process, but then lack timing on the release. But that doesn't make poor fundamentals, it just makes struggles with release point. You can have good fundamentals all the way through the chain and still throw it all the way over the catcher's head or bounce it halfway, just as you can have poor, uncontrolled fundamentals all the way through and still pound the zone (like Dontrelle Willis early in his career).

[MarkGrace]

Best you can say about Riley vs Utah and Boise is that he was hurt therefore you can't judge him.

I've got a couple problems with giving him a pass because of injury in these games. The first was that he wasn't terrible because he was hurt. Maybe he had fewer completions because he can't get as much on the ball, and maybe he can't run quite as well, but the real reason he was terrible was because he threw the ball right at the other freakin' team much like he always has. And that has nothing to do with being hurt, because even last year when healthy he was constantly doing this.

Last year at TCU and Tulsa he could have easily had 4 and 5 pick games, and there were other games where multiple picks were possible. You can only throw so many balls right at the defense and not have them come up with it. He was even lucky against Utah because they dropped another two potential picks. But at some point making decisions like that just catches up to you. He has 5 turnovers in basically his last four quarters of play and they all occurred simply because he made decisions and throws much like he always has....just this time somebody caught them.

My second problem is that he is always getting injured. Ok, so that's not as much a complaint against his performance as it is how the coaches have handled the position (though some of that complaint goes against him as well because he simply refuses to play in a manner to keep himself healthy). Everyone and their dog knew we simply couldn't rely on this kid's health. He's been injured every. single. year., and it was simply one reason among the many that people thought going with him was a bad idea. How many times this offseason did someone say "it's not a question of if, but when" when referring to his health? Well I guess game two was our answer. At this point what's the most consecutive games the kid has played without getting hurt? 4? Maybe 5? His health was always a big part of the argument about going with him.

[Hsaru]

I've got a couple problems with giving him a pass because of injury in these games. The first was that he wasn't terrible because he was hurt. Maybe he had fewer completions because he can't get as much on the ball, and maybe he can't run quite as well, but the real reason he was terrible was because he threw the ball right at the other freakin' team much like he always has. And that has nothing to do with being hurt, because even last year when healthy he was constantly doing this.

Last year at TCU and Tulsa he could have easily had 4 and 5 pick games, and there were other games where multiple picks were possible. You can only throw so many balls right at the defense and not have them come up with it. He was even lucky against Utah because they dropped another two potential picks. But at some point making decisions like that just catches up to you. He has 5 turnovers in basically his last four quarters of play and they all occurred simply because he made decisions and throws much like he always has....just this time somebody caught them.

My second problem is that he is always getting injured. Ok, so that's not as much a complaint against his performance as it is how the coaches have handled the position (though some of that complaint goes against him as well because he simply refuses to play in a manner to keep himself healthy). Everyone and their dog knew we simply couldn't rely on this kid's health. He's been injured every. single. year., and it was simply one reason among the many that people thought going with him was a bad idea. How many times this offseason did someone say "it's not a question of if, but when" when referring to his health? Well I guess game two was our answer. At this point what's the most consecutive games the kid has played without getting hurt? 4? Maybe 5? His health was always a big part of the argument about going with him.

Nice post, if you've been watching closely Riley's been playing this way his whole career. It started to become a joke how lucky he'd get for not being punished for all his terrible passes and mistakes hanging on to the ball, it finally caught up to him. We all knew it would except Shaka and Bronco/Doman I guess.

[TripletDaddy]

Let's move all of this Riley Nelson talk to the "I hate Riley Nelson" or the "Riley Nelson is a BA" thread. Shaka and Hsaru can choose which, I don't care.

[USUC]

Let's move all of this Riley Nelson talk to the "I hate Riley Nelson" or the "Riley Nelson is a BA" thread. Shaka and Hsaru can choose which, I don't care.

I want to hear more about the newest savior, Taysom. Enough about the old savior.