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  • BYU over the next 3 years.....

    I am tempted to jump onto the full "buy" mode, but I wonder if there are holes I am missing.

    In 2008 BYU appeared to be ready for a potential national level splash, but Utah and TCU were able to expose BYU. Offensively, Hall had his worst games at the wrong times and BYU was unable to force teams to respect the vertically passing game - even with the best WR it ever had. Defensively, the interior players of the front 7 were unable to stop the run forcing Mendenhall/Hill to compensate with DEs and OLBs leaving an already athletically challenged unit to be exposed on the edge. Going into the year I expected Hall to play his best when it mattered most and was surprised at how lackluster the ILBs and NT were.

    2009 presented a similar opportunity but BYU had perhaps its shittiest game of the Mendenhall era against FSU and TCU was just much, much better.

    I don't think BYU is going to face anyone this year as good as TCU the past two years but one doesn't really know what opponents have until they play them. However, what at the potential holes for this BYU team that could create the havoc that we experienced defensively in 2008?

    As I watch the Mendenhall defense, it appears to me that the first role is to stop the inside run game at any cost neccesary. In 2008 we sold ourselves out on the edge by emphasizing stopping the run up the middle. That will always be Mendenhall's first priority. I think this BYU club is well equipped to do that with just its base players - assuming they stay healthy. I think the interior triangle of Fangupo, Ogletree and Kaveinga will be brilliant in this role and Mendnehall will have much greater flexibility with his DEs and OLBs. In fact I really think that this BYU team is going to be really difficult for anyone to rush against. I think BYU has the mass on the DL and with the ILBs to stack teams up without significant difficulty. I think BYU also has the depth at those positions to be able to do it with fresh bodies all game long. Further, BYU's OLBs are speedy and athletic enough that when teams seek to string the Y defense out horizontally it will be really tough to do. Further, I think that while there are concerns about the BYU safeties, I think they will be well prepared and capable to fill the rush lanes and deliver very physical and punishing tackles.

    The biggest hole I worry about is getting pressure on the QB. While the OLBs are extremely athletic and poised to be exceptional, that is a weakness that concerns me. I think the safeties will be excellent in run support, once again as that is the core expectation of a Mendenhall coached defense. However, I have my concerns that they will be nearly as proficient in pass coverage. The key to that concern is the OLBs really stepping up their pass rush and not allowing opposing qbs the time neccesary to find the holes in the BYU pass defense. For those who have attended spring practice, how do you estimate BYU's ability to rush opposing qbs? I think the CBs will be better than adequate in coverage but I don't yet have that confidence in the safeties so I am hoping that the studs at OLB will bail them out. The OLBs SHOULD be able to do it but last year as good as KVN, Frazier and Pendleton looked at times I don't recall them getting the pressure that their athleticism would indicate. However, Pendleton was hurt, KVN was a true freshman and Frazier was playing the position for the first time. I am expecting improvement but it has to be pretty big, IMO.

    Offensively, I think BYU is loaded. Some key players need experience and that is why I am skeptical that BYU can be much better than a solid top 20 team this year. However, after another year of experience for Heaps, Apo, the TEs and Quezada, they will be scary the following two years. As the year ended I don't see anything that concerns me about the offense, wrt holes that I am ignoring, just that they will need more experience and that comes only one way.
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
    -DOCTOR Wuap

  • #2
    Good post, Goat. I don't know this shit as well as you guys do (but well enough to see that Riley Nelson's arm sucks!), but from reading everyone's thoughts pass coverage in the secondary seems to be a concern. I forget who said it the other day, but it would be nice to see Hadley move over to safety some as his skills seem more in line with coverage.

    As far as getting pressure on the QB, Eason was probably most effective in that role last year, and I expect to see the same. I also remember seeing Frazier get into the backfield a number of times, and KVN had some moments as well -- hopefully he can step that pressure up another level this year because he has the athleticism to crack some heads.
    So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
      Good post, Goat. I don't know this shit as well as you guys do (but well enough to see that Riley Nelson's arm sucks!), but from reading everyone's thoughts pass coverage in the secondary seems to be a concern. I forget who said it the other day, but it would be nice to see Hadley move over to safety some as his skills seem more in line with coverage.

      As far as getting pressure on the QB, Eason was probably most effective in that role last year, and I expect to see the same. I also remember seeing Frazier get into the backfield a number of times, and KVN had some moments as well -- hopefully he can step that pressure up another level this year because he has the athleticism to crack some heads.
      I don't think you will ever see Mendenhall favor a player for the safety position who has better cover skills than run support skills. The first purpose of the defense is to always stop the run.

      I think Hadley will be a primary back up at cornerback and could potentially take the starting position from Robbie Buckner.
      Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
      -General George S. Patton

      I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
      -DOCTOR Wuap

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
        I am tempted to jump onto the full "buy" mode, but I wonder if there are holes I am missing.

        In 2008 BYU appeared to be ready for a potential national level splash, but Utah and TCU were able to expose BYU. Offensively, Hall had his worst games at the wrong times and BYU was unable to force teams to respect the vertically passing game - even with the best WR it ever had. Defensively, the interior players of the front 7 were unable to stop the run forcing Mendenhall/Hill to compensate with DEs and OLBs leaving an already athletically challenged unit to be exposed on the edge. Going into the year I expected Hall to play his best when it mattered most and was surprised at how lackluster the ILBs and NT were.

        2009 presented a similar opportunity but BYU had perhaps its shittiest game of the Mendenhall era against FSU and TCU was just much, much better.

        I don't think BYU is going to face anyone this year as good as TCU the past two years but one doesn't really know what opponents have until they play them. However, what at the potential holes for this BYU team that could create the havoc that we experienced defensively in 2008?

        As I watch the Mendenhall defense, it appears to me that the first role is to stop the inside run game at any cost neccesary. In 2008 we sold ourselves out on the edge by emphasizing stopping the run up the middle. That will always be Mendenhall's first priority. I think this BYU club is well equipped to do that with just its base players - assuming they stay healthy. I think the interior triangle of Fangupo, Ogletree and Kaveinga will be brilliant in this role and Mendnehall will have much greater flexibility with his DEs and OLBs. In fact I really think that this BYU team is going to be really difficult for anyone to rush against. I think BYU has the mass on the DL and with the ILBs to stack teams up without significant difficulty. I think BYU also has the depth at those positions to be able to do it with fresh bodies all game long. Further, BYU's OLBs are speedy and athletic enough that when teams seek to string the Y defense out horizontally it will be really tough to do. Further, I think that while there are concerns about the BYU safeties, I think they will be well prepared and capable to fill the rush lanes and deliver very physical and punishing tackles.

        The biggest hole I worry about is getting pressure on the QB. While the OLBs are extremely athletic and poised to be exceptional, that is a weakness that concerns me. I think the safeties will be excellent in run support, once again as that is the core expectation of a Mendenhall coached defense. However, I have my concerns that they will be nearly as proficient in pass coverage. The key to that concern is the OLBs really stepping up their pass rush and not allowing opposing qbs the time neccesary to find the holes in the BYU pass defense. For those who have attended spring practice, how do you estimate BYU's ability to rush opposing qbs? I think the CBs will be better than adequate in coverage but I don't yet have that confidence in the safeties so I am hoping that the studs at OLB will bail them out. The OLBs SHOULD be able to do it but last year as good as KVN, Frazier and Pendleton looked at times I don't recall them getting the pressure that their athleticism would indicate. However, Pendleton was hurt, KVN was a true freshman and Frazier was playing the position for the first time. I am expecting improvement but it has to be pretty big, IMO.

        Offensively, I think BYU is loaded. Some key players need experience and that is why I am skeptical that BYU can be much better than a solid top 20 team this year. However, after another year of experience for Heaps, Apo, the TEs and Quezada, they will be scary the following two years. As the year ended I don't see anything that concerns me about the offense, wrt holes that I am ignoring, just that they will need more experience and that comes only one way.
        How has Mendenhall's defenses historically performed at getting pressure on the QBs? I think this has been a problem (at least) the last couple of years. I can't imagine its a scheme thing, more just a lack of explosive talent at the line. To me that is what separates the good teams from the great teams; an explosive D-Line. AS of now I don't think there is a QB on this years schedule that will kill us like Ponder did. Godfrey from UCF didn't have a terrible season last year and he was young. Moniz from Hawaii can put up some yards. Who knows what to expect from Texas. Right now its between Gilbert and McCoy.

        I think Ole Miss should give us an idea of how we handle big athletic O-lines. I think this BYU team has a lot of potential but I think it might be a stretch to expect a 10 win regular season. My guess is 9 - 3 heading into the bowl game.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by USU Coug View Post
          How has Mendenhall's defenses historically performed at getting pressure on the QBs? I think this has been a problem (at least) the last couple of years. I can't imagine its a scheme thing, more just a lack of explosive talent at the line. To me that is what separates the good teams from the great teams; an explosive D-Line. AS of now I don't think there is a QB on this years schedule that will kill us like Ponder did. Godfrey from UCF didn't have a terrible season last year and he was young. Moniz from Hawaii can put up some yards. Who knows what to expect from Texas. Right now its between Gilbert and McCoy.

          I think Ole Miss should give us an idea of how we handle big athletic O-lines. I think this BYU team has a lot of potential but I think it might be a stretch to expect a 10 win regular season. My guess is 9 - 3 heading into the bowl game.
          I think Jorgenson could pass rush but he was called upon to carry too much of the load to stop the opponents rush his junior and senior year. The DL recruiting has struggled for some time but it appears between fortuitous luck and some better focus on DL recruiting things are changing for the better. I also think that the OLBs , for the past 3-4 years, lacked the athleticism we now have. To me it won't be the DL that gets pressure on the qb. Our DEs just will not have the speed. Our DL is big and designed to stop the run and occupy blockers. The playmakers will have to be the OLBs.
          Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
          -General George S. Patton

          I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
          -DOCTOR Wuap

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
            I don't think you will ever see Mendenhall favor a player for the safety position who has better cover skills than run support skills. The first purpose of the defense is to always stop the run.

            I think Hadley will be a primary back up at cornerback and could potentially take the starting position from Robbie Buckner.
            But that is what appears to be one of Hadley's major selling points for PT...it seems that at worst he'd be at least as adequate in run support as Uale. And without ever having watched him play outside of his highlights I already know he's far, far ahead of Uale in pass coverage abilities.

            Maybe Hague proves so spectacular that it will be like having an extra MLB on the field and Bronco will choose to go that way. But with Sorensen likely playing Kat it'd sure be nice to have Ed Reed playing free.

            Comment


            • #7
              Good stuff. Since I am not much of a technician when it comes to FB or BB, I tend to look at the head part of things.

              I think Bronco got caught up after the first couple or 3 years into his aura as leader of the stripling warriors. Worrying more about all their abilities except what they did on the field. He left that up to others as he pursued what he probably thinks is more noble and inspirational than being a in the mud FB coach.

              To his credit sometime last year he caught the vision and as I remember Maverick being told, get back in their Maverick, engage, engage (or something like that), I think Bronco got back in there.

              As I have said, the BB experience probably gave him added insight as to what can happen if you perform at a high level let alone the highest level.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post


                As I watch the Mendenhall defense, it appears to me that the first role is to stop the inside run game at any cost neccesary. In 2008 we sold ourselves out on the edge by emphasizing stopping the run up the middle. That will always be Mendenhall's first priority. I think this BYU club is well equipped to do that with just its base players - assuming they stay healthy. I think the interior triangle of Fangupo, Ogletree and Kaveinga will be brilliant in this role and Mendnehall will have much greater flexibility with his DEs and OLBs. In fact I really think that this BYU team is going to be really difficult for anyone to rush against. I think BYU has the mass on the DL and with the ILBs to stack teams up without significant difficulty. I think BYU also has the depth at those positions to be able to do it with fresh bodies all game long. Further, BYU's OLBs are speedy and athletic enough that when teams seek to string the Y defense out horizontally it will be really tough to do. Further, I think that while there are concerns about the BYU safeties, I think they will be well prepared and capable to fill the rush lanes and deliver very physical and punishing tackles.

                The biggest hole I worry about is getting pressure on the QB. While the OLBs are extremely athletic and poised to be exceptional, that is a weakness that concerns me. I think the safeties will be excellent in run support, once again as that is the core expectation of a Mendenhall coached defense. However, I have my concerns that they will be nearly as proficient in pass coverage. The key to that concern is the OLBs really stepping up their pass rush and not allowing opposing qbs the time neccesary to find the holes in the BYU pass defense. For those who have attended spring practice, how do you estimate BYU's ability to rush opposing qbs? I think the CBs will be better than adequate in coverage but I don't yet have that confidence in the safeties so I am hoping that the studs at OLB will bail them out. The OLBs SHOULD be able to do it but last year as good as KVN, Frazier and Pendleton looked at times I don't recall them getting the pressure that their athleticism would indicate. However, Pendleton was hurt, KVN was a true freshman and Frazier was playing the position for the first time. I am expecting improvement but it has to be pretty big, IMO.
                Limits on the WOLB position have been a major factor in the pass rush, or lack thereof. When we've had depth, we've had a pretty good pash rush (Nixon, Bolden, and Clawson). But I really think the biggest factor has been Bronco's philosophy change from create-confusion to bend-but-not-break. He's pretty selective about when he sends pressure. I think the recruiting model is to try and re-create 2006 every single year. LB's that good, that deep, and cover that much ground can make up for a lot of things. I find myself less worried about FS/SS as a result (Corby Hodgkiss anyone?).

                Also, Jordan Wynn may be the best quarterback BYU faces against next year. Ole' Miss/TCU will be breaking in new QB's and Texas seems to be having QB issues. That is not to say that we won't have problems with them, but just that QB's won't be one of them, especially so early in the season. Admittedly, I know nothing about UCF and am completely disregarding the second half of our schedule. I think we'll see a lot of zone and let them beat themselves, since most of them will.


                Offensively, I think BYU is loaded. Some key players need experience and that is why I am skeptical that BYU can be much better than a solid top 20 team this year. However, after another year of experience for Heaps, Apo, the TEs and Quezada, they will be scary the following two years. As the year ended I don't see anything that concerns me about the offense, wrt holes that I am ignoring, just that they will need more experience and that comes only one way.
                We have an offensive identity now and that makes me excited. I like Doman a lot, and I think he will be very successful as OC, but I am still very interested to see how things go in his first couple of games. I know he has a lot of experience and players love him, but it'll be different on game day when he's the one holding the clipboard making the decisions.

                I think we'll be a good offensive football team, but we're still operating with a lot of unknowns. IF Mahina/Holt develop into a Pitta/George or Harline/Coats type combination, and IF McKay Jacobsen returns to pre-mission form and is effective in the slot, and IF Weber's new found freedom (whatever that means) leads our OL to be even better and IF everyone can stay healthy, we'll be very good. I just won't be suprised if being very good takes a few games.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                  Good stuff. Since I am not much of a technician when it comes to FB or BB, I tend to look at the head part of things.

                  I think Bronco got caught up after the first couple or 3 years into his aura as leader of the stripling warriors. Worrying more about all their abilities except what they did on the field. He left that up to others as he pursued what he probably thinks is more noble and inspirational than being a in the mud FB coach.

                  To his credit sometime last year he caught the vision and as I remember Maverick being told, get back in their Maverick, engage, engage (or something like that), I think Bronco got back in there.

                  As I have said, the BB experience probably gave him added insight as to what can happen if you perform at a high level let alone the highest level.
                  I read somewhere where he mentioned after 2009 he wanted to resign - that might have been a rumor but I wonder how much fun 2008 and 2009 were for him. The less than insightful "Quest for Perfection" mixed with Utah's run and then the baaaad loss to FSU in 2009 with the bad treatment of Jaimie Hill probably had him wondering if he could get it done. I think the talent infusion got him reengergized and then came the bringing BYU out of the ashes like a Phoenix year. I think his redesigned staff is moreso a reflection of him and what he wants. I think the talent has him dialed in and he really wants to get BYU to a national level run that they finish. We shall see if he can pull it off. There are so many variables, but I think he has the talent and the staff. But on the other hand, much like the loss to Utah last year, I wonder if he will be able to get it done all the way through.

                  I thought he was unfairly maligned in 2008 and 2009 but the reality is he might be an exceptional coach where every year something just prevents him from getting totally over the top.
                  Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
                  -General George S. Patton

                  I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
                  -DOCTOR Wuap

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by USU Coug View Post
                    How has Mendenhall's defenses historically performed at getting pressure on the QBs? I think this has been a problem (at least) the last couple of years. I can't imagine its a scheme thing, more just a lack of explosive talent at the line. To me that is what separates the good teams from the great teams; an explosive D-Line. AS of now I don't think there is a QB on this years schedule that will kill us like Ponder did. Godfrey from UCF didn't have a terrible season last year and he was young. Moniz from Hawaii can put up some yards. Who knows what to expect from Texas. Right now its between Gilbert and McCoy.

                    I think Ole Miss should give us an idea of how we handle big athletic O-lines. I think this BYU team has a lot of potential but I think it might be a stretch to expect a 10 win regular season. My guess is 9 - 3 heading into the bowl game.
                    3-4 qb pressure rarely comes from the line.. The 3 D-linemen occupy blockers to free up the linbackers to makes plays and apply pressure. That is the point of the scheme. You will never see a D-lineman in the 3-4 lead the the team in sacks and pressures.

                    Look at the Steelers by way of example (a 3-4 scheme that is copied at all levels of football) Farrior, Woodley, and Harrison get all the sacks and pressures.

                    The D line does not need to be "explosive" (I am not even sure what you mean by that) in the 3-4, but the NT does need to consistently command a double team and as of Nevada last year BYU didn't have a NT that could do that. Even prior to that game BYU's depth at the NT position didn't allow for them to consistently get that from the DT position. That won't be a problem this year.

                    Your overall win total is reasonable given that we will be playing Ole' Miss and Texas essentially as road games early in the season. I could see us dropping both of those games and another one thrown in there. I will have a better idea after fall camp though.
                    Dyslexics are teople poo...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Heaps era should be very special. I'm sold on Bronco's ability to field a good D after what he did last year. He's got to keep recruiting talent in the secondary and keep them in school long enough to play. And I'm not sure yet whether Juice is a big time back. I'd like to see someone else emerge there or recruit another Unga. Other than that, this team is completely loaded for the next few years. I'd say top 10 (I don't know about next year but when we reach our peak) with the ability to take it to the next level if we can sustain a running game and develop some corners.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jay santos View Post
                        The Heaps era should be very special. I'm sold on Bronco's ability to field a good D after what he did last year. He's got to keep recruiting talent in the secondary and keep them in school long enough to play. And I'm not sure yet whether Juice is a big time back. I'd like to see someone else emerge there or recruit another Unga. Other than that, this team is completely loaded for the next few years. I'd say top 10 (I don't know about next year but when we reach our peak) with the ability to take it to the next level if we can sustain a running game and develop some corners.
                        Bronco thinks Juice is a big time back. Take that for what it's worth.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Flystripper View Post
                          3-4 qb pressure rarely comes from the line.. The 3 D-linemen occupy blockers to free up the linbackers to makes plays and apply pressure. That is the point of the scheme. You will never see a D-lineman in the 3-4 lead the the team in sacks and pressures.

                          Look at the Steelers by way of example (a 3-4 scheme that is copied at all levels of football) Farrior, Woodley, and Harrison get all the sacks and pressures.

                          The D line does not need to be "explosive" (I am not even sure what you mean by that) in the 3-4, but the NT does need to consistently command a double team and as of Nevada last year BYU didn't have a NT that could do that. Even prior to that game BYU's depth at the NT position didn't allow for them to consistently get that from the DT position. That won't be a problem this year.

                          Your overall win total is reasonable given that we will be playing Ole' Miss and Texas essentially as road games early in the season. I could see us dropping both of those games and another one thrown in there. I will have a better idea after fall camp though.
                          That makes a lot of sense. Good info. I guess when I say "explosive" I think of individual players wreaking havoc (Suh, Fairly, Dareus, etc.) even when a designed blitz isn't called. Players that have the ability to overpower their blocker and disrupt. That all comes down to talent I suppose but I don't have the grasp of defensive schemes like many of you guys. Thanks for the info.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sizzle View Post
                            Bronco thinks Juice is a big time back. Take that for what it's worth.
                            IMO, he's a step slow to be anything more than serviceable.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jay santos View Post
                              IMO, he's a step slow to be anything more than serviceable.
                              Hopefully the reports from this spring are true then.
                              So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

                              Comment

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