Unga's withdrawing from school.

[LA Ute]

That is a silver lining that should not be overlooked. Still, I'll bang my old drum the gospel doesn't call for punishment as a precondition for forgiveness.

But it's so much less satisfying to forgive in the absence of punishment.

[il Padrino Ute]

I'd wear protection. (The maple frosting can really get all over my favorite BYU shirt if I'm not careful.)

I don't want to know the details of what you do in the privacy of your own home.

[Flattop]

That is a silver lining that should not be overlooked. Still, I'll bang my old drum the gospel doesn't call for punishment as a precondition for forgiveness.

Have sex outside of marriage and then go try to get a Temple recommend.

[jay santos]

Have sex outside of marriage and then go try to get a Temple recommend.

Agree. BYU football players should be required to have current temple recommends.

[New Mexican Disaster]

But it's so much less satisfying to forgive in the absence of punishment.

There may be a job opening for you at the HCO. You have a lot of potential young man.

[UtahDan]

Have sex outside of marriage and then go try to get a Temple recommend.

As I say, I don't think the gospel requires punishment before forgiveness. Clearly the church does, you are right about that.

[LA Ute]

As I say, I don't think the gospel requires punishment before forgiveness. Clearly the church does, you are right about that.

OK, but can't there at least be some suffering before forgiveness? I like to see that in people of whose behavior I disapprove. It's very reassuring.

[UtahDan]

OK, but can't there at least be some suffering before forgiveness? I like to see that in people of whose behavior I disapprove. It's very reassuring.

I feel like we are talking about me.

[Flattop]

As I say, I don't think the gospel requires punishment before forgiveness. Clearly the church does, you are right about that.

While the gospel may or may not require punisment before forgiveness, it clearly requires that certain steps be taken before forgiveness is granted.

[byu71]

While the gospel may or may not require punisment before forgiveness, it clearly requires that certain steps be taken before forgiveness is granted.

Do you think parts of the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" story in the bible were left out. Like the steps she needed to take before she was forgiven. Maybe that story was just too simple and left out some parts.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Do you think parts of the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" story in the bible were left out. Like the steps she needed to take before she was forgiven. Maybe that story was just too simple and left out some parts.

Ironically, the entire story of Christ's encounter with the adultress and her accusers is not in any of the earliest biblical texts. It was clearly added later.

[byu71]

Ironically, the entire story of Christ's encounter with the adultress and her accusers is not in any of the earliest biblical texts. It was clearly added later.

I didn't know that. How about the leapers being cleansed? It seems Christ forgave people on the spot, which of course he had the right to do, but I wonder if there were indeed steps taken

[Flattop]

Do you think parts of the "he who is without sin cast the first stone" story in the bible were left out. Like the steps she needed to take before she was forgiven. Maybe that story was just too simple and left out some parts.

I cannot throw any stones because I am not without sin. God forgives who he forgives, and in other places in the scriptures he clearly lays out a process for repentance and forgiveness.

Btw, he said to her "Go and sin no more." A clear indication that forsaking the sin is required.

[byu71]

I cannot throw any stones because I am not without sin. God forgives who he forgives, and in other places in the scriptures he clearly lays out a process for repentance and forgiveness.

Btw, he said to her "Go and sin no more." A clear indication that forsaking the sin is required.

I can see how the principle of not judging could be being taught and left out perhaps the punishment or steps she needed to take. Maybe the stones that had already hit her was considered the punishment.

Then again JL brought up a point that makes me wonder why it was added and by who.

[CardiacCoug]

Are you talking about Ernest ("Ernie the Attorney") Wilkinson? I don't think he had anything to do with the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet, unless that pamphlet got its start in the 1960s - and I'm pretty sure it didn't.

The Honor Code has been around for a long time and predated Ernie, but he was pretty pivotal regarding the modern Honor Code. Here's more history than most of us wnat to know about that:

http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org...ter3.htm#honor

Actually, I think K-dog is right here. Ernest Wilkinson was on a mission to ban "fad dances" from BYU and apparently influenced some language about dance in the 1966 For the Strength of Youth pamphlet (which incidentally was only 16 pages long, much shorter than the current version):

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=8839

The 1966 For the Strength of Youth pamphlet added some additional counsel for the young people regarding dance. Here are a few excerpts:

If one concentrates on good dance posture, many dances can be danced in a manner which will meet LDS standards. Some examples of these dances are the waltz, fox trot, tango, rhumba, cha-cha, samba, [and] swing. . . .

. . . Members of the Church should be good dancers and not contortionists. Extreme body movements—such as hip and shoulder shaking, body jerking, etc.—should be avoided, and emphasis should be placed on smooth styling and clever footwork. [For the Strength of Youth, 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints, 1966), 13]